4 ms·

The Roman siege of Masada lasted just a few weeks, not several years

14 points by wglb 2y ago

robertlagrant 2y ago
> and the Zionist ethos I find this sort of statement very odd in what otherwise sounds like a lightweight but timeless telling of what they've found.
- Beefin 2y ago
  i assume you've created a negative association with zionism (from the news?) but that is far from the case. zionism is the belief that the jews have the right to live in their ancestral homeland (ancient judea), which is not at the expense of anyone else. any jew that's gone on birthright visits Masada, it's a right of passage. the vast majority of jews around the world are zionist and believe israel is the original homeland of jews, which historically is true. now if there's an argument to be made that there should be no religious centric nations, well then we should hold the christian and muslim majority states to the same standard, no?
  - bjourne 2y ago
    The negative association is there because Zionism is no different from Islamism. In both cases Fascist ideologies have coopted religion to dominate people deemed inferior.
    - robertlagrant 2y ago
      I think this is sort of what I mean - I don't know if this is true for all uses of the word, or if you're coopted by very one-sided, uninformed, and ideological media, and that's just what all your friends say who watch the same media. Who knows?
  - Beefin 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - cholantesh 2y ago
      This only makes sense if the negative association is entirely based on demographic concerns, which it patently isn't.
  - DabbyDabberson 2y ago
    To be fair, not all definitions of Zionism refer to colonizing the area around jerusalem. More generally, zionism is around creating a jewish state and controlling their own destiny.
    - Beefin 2y ago
      correct, my point is op seems to carry an emotional burden with the word "zionism". which is really only explained by the recent (since 10/7) media cycles IMO.
      - cholantesh 2y ago
        Insofar there's been a very ramped up effort to characterize 'zionist' as a slur so as to silence critics of the ideology, yeah.
        nuxai 2y ago
        you're saying zionists use zionism as a slur to subdue criticism of zionism? that's peak jew conspiracy.
        cholantesh 2y ago
        No, I'm saying that (some) zionists characterise the use of 'zionist' as anti-semetic, more so today than in the past, but cool straw man.
  - cholantesh 2y ago
    >zionism is the belief that the jews have the right to live in their ancestral homeland (ancient judea), ///which is not at the expense of anyone else./// Somewhat dubious.
    - Beefin 2y ago
      see my comment that's getting downvoted, of all the singular religious majority states it has the lowest of that single majority. muslims hold the highest position in the land. why do you believe zionism is at the expense of other religions?
      - cheeseomlit 2y ago
        The term 'Expense' in your original comment did not seem to be restricted only to other religions, but to 'other people'. Leaving aside contentious regional and religious disputes- As a US taxpayer, it seems the expenses required for Israels continued existence are quite high to say the least
        nuxai 2y ago
        Wow are you this upset over Ukraine receiving $24b in 2022? Btw Israel received $3.2b, and the majority of which are "credits". If you were an actual concerned taxpayer, you'd want to understand what America gets in response from 24b - what do we get? Israel is America's strongest partner in the ME your belief that it's a one-sided relationship is ridiculous.
        cholantesh 2y ago
        >Israel is America's strongest partner in the ME your belief that it's a one-sided relationship is ridiculous. I actually agree with the second part of this sentence, but it is worth explaining what this means in a material sense.
        nuxai 2y ago
  - cheeseomlit 2y ago
    >which is not at the expense of anyone else I think that's the contentious part, as the establishment of modern Isreal has come at great expense to many others- I don't think their religious nature in and of itself is much of an issue with most of their critics. Though I'm not sure that's what the original commenter was implying
    - Beefin 2y ago
      Jewish land acquisition in Palestine before 1948 was often through legal purchases from Arab landowners. However, not all left; those who remained within the borders of what became Israel after 1948 were granted citizenship. If you're referring to the Nakba, Palestinian Arabs were instructed by their own leadership or neighboring Arab states to leave their homes temporarily to facilitate military operations against the newly declared state of Israel. The displacement of Palestinians was a consequence of war, not solely a deliberate act by Jewish forces
      - oa335 2y ago
        > If you're referring to the Nakba, Palestinian Arabs were instructed by their own leadership or neighboring Arab states to leave their homes temporarily to facilitate military operations against the newly declared state of Israel. This is a myth. Vast majority of left at gunpoint. Please read about operation Dalet and histories of that era by the “new historians” eg Benny Morris, Ilan pappe, etc.
        dunekid 2y ago
        Not even a Myth. But a lie told and retold several times, the Zionists deemed it to be the truth and the only truth. But the Nakba has always been seen here, through the victims' tears and the colonialists' documents.
      - NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
        > Jewish land acquisition in Palestine before 1948 was often through legal purchases from Arab landowners. Sometimes the mob wants to buy up real estate. And if people are willing to sell, it's just a transaction with varying shades of exploitation (knowing that it will be worth more when they resell). But if those people don't want to sell, the mob doesn't just offer larger sums. There are then elements of intimidation. Strange cars drive past your home at night. You see big ugly men staring at you in a menacing fashion when you're out in public, then they wave and walk away. Bricks through windows. Anonymous threats of grave harm or murder. The escalation is constant. Anyone who sells at that point knows better than to start blabbing that they did so only because their lives were in danger... the people who extorted them don't much like being in the news even after the fact. But that's the mob. I'm sure it was different in the first half of the 20th century in the place now known as Israel.
- crdrost 2y ago
  >> and the Zionist ethos > I find this sort of statement very odd in what otherwise sounds like a lightweight but timeless telling of what they've found. Correct. Times of Israel [1] shares some other quotes and connects this particular purpose statement not to the research but to the response: > Since the study results were publicized last week, there have been hundreds of “interesting reactions” on Hebrew social media and news sites, Stiebel said. [...] “It is interesting how personally people take this. These are events that happened 2,000 years ago! Masada is a kind of mirror into Israeli society – how we look at Masada shows a lot of the political and social changes society has undergone.” Where the quote in question is in the [...] above, with some other remarks. So the comment that this is part of “Israeli DNA and the Zionist ethos” I think is not meant to necessarily denigrate those ideas, but just to comment on the fact that stories are important, we take them as part of our identity, these research results don’t have to threaten the soul of the narrative (i.e. there's no claim that the siege didn't happen or wasn't brutal or didn't last longer than expected), but you do have these kinds of nationalist conservative factions who register even the slightest tweaks to their internal narratives (3 years to 3 months) as personal attacks on their own identities. He's just labeling the group that is most prone to this, but I don't think he means the labeling to be pejorative. (Roughly the Christian equivalent is that I know a lot of folks who use “fundamentalist” and esp “fundie” as pejorative, but I also know a bunch of Christians who bear that title proudly.) [1]: https://www.timesofisrael.com/masada-legend-upended-the-romans-came-saw-and-conquered-quickly-and-brutally/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/masada-legend-upended-the-roma...
7e 2y ago
The historical timeline for the siege is unreliable, but somehow the number of soldiers is rock-solid accurate? And, further, it is known that they were able to complete their siege works unharried? This paper at best provides a best-case estimate. At worst, it's trying very hard to find evidence to support a fashionable belief that the siege was short.
readthenotes1 2y ago
Greeks: Let me think about it. I'll tell you how much stone to move as soon as I get my straight -edge fixed. Romans: Git 'er done.

14 points by wglb 2y ago

> and the Zionist ethos I find this sort of statement very odd in what otherwise sounds like a lightweight but timeless telling of what they've found.

Beefin 2y ago
i assume you've created a negative association with zionism (from the news?) but that is far from the case. zionism is the belief that the jews have the right to live in their ancestral homeland (ancient judea), which is not at the expense of anyone else. any jew that's gone on birthright visits Masada, it's a right of passage. the vast majority of jews around the world are zionist and believe israel is the original homeland of jews, which historically is true. now if there's an argument to be made that there should be no religious centric nations, well then we should hold the christian and muslim majority states to the same standard, no?
- bjourne 2y ago
  The negative association is there because Zionism is no different from Islamism. In both cases Fascist ideologies have coopted religion to dominate people deemed inferior.
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    I think this is sort of what I mean - I don't know if this is true for all uses of the word, or if you're coopted by very one-sided, uninformed, and ideological media, and that's just what all your friends say who watch the same media. Who knows?
- Beefin 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - cholantesh 2y ago
    This only makes sense if the negative association is entirely based on demographic concerns, which it patently isn't.
- DabbyDabberson 2y ago
  To be fair, not all definitions of Zionism refer to colonizing the area around jerusalem. More generally, zionism is around creating a jewish state and controlling their own destiny.
  - Beefin 2y ago
    correct, my point is op seems to carry an emotional burden with the word "zionism". which is really only explained by the recent (since 10/7) media cycles IMO.
    - cholantesh 2y ago
      Insofar there's been a very ramped up effort to characterize 'zionist' as a slur so as to silence critics of the ideology, yeah.
      - nuxai 2y ago
        you're saying zionists use zionism as a slur to subdue criticism of zionism? that's peak jew conspiracy.
        cholantesh 2y ago
        No, I'm saying that (some) zionists characterise the use of 'zionist' as anti-semetic, more so today than in the past, but cool straw man.
- cholantesh 2y ago
  >zionism is the belief that the jews have the right to live in their ancestral homeland (ancient judea), ///which is not at the expense of anyone else./// Somewhat dubious.
  - Beefin 2y ago
    see my comment that's getting downvoted, of all the singular religious majority states it has the lowest of that single majority. muslims hold the highest position in the land. why do you believe zionism is at the expense of other religions?
    - cheeseomlit 2y ago
      The term 'Expense' in your original comment did not seem to be restricted only to other religions, but to 'other people'. Leaving aside contentious regional and religious disputes- As a US taxpayer, it seems the expenses required for Israels continued existence are quite high to say the least
      - nuxai 2y ago
        Wow are you this upset over Ukraine receiving $24b in 2022? Btw Israel received $3.2b, and the majority of which are "credits". If you were an actual concerned taxpayer, you'd want to understand what America gets in response from 24b - what do we get? Israel is America's strongest partner in the ME your belief that it's a one-sided relationship is ridiculous.
        cholantesh 2y ago
        >Israel is America's strongest partner in the ME your belief that it's a one-sided relationship is ridiculous. I actually agree with the second part of this sentence, but it is worth explaining what this means in a material sense.
        nuxai 2y ago
- cheeseomlit 2y ago
  >which is not at the expense of anyone else I think that's the contentious part, as the establishment of modern Isreal has come at great expense to many others- I don't think their religious nature in and of itself is much of an issue with most of their critics. Though I'm not sure that's what the original commenter was implying
  - Beefin 2y ago
    Jewish land acquisition in Palestine before 1948 was often through legal purchases from Arab landowners. However, not all left; those who remained within the borders of what became Israel after 1948 were granted citizenship. If you're referring to the Nakba, Palestinian Arabs were instructed by their own leadership or neighboring Arab states to leave their homes temporarily to facilitate military operations against the newly declared state of Israel. The displacement of Palestinians was a consequence of war, not solely a deliberate act by Jewish forces
    - oa335 2y ago
      > If you're referring to the Nakba, Palestinian Arabs were instructed by their own leadership or neighboring Arab states to leave their homes temporarily to facilitate military operations against the newly declared state of Israel. This is a myth. Vast majority of left at gunpoint. Please read about operation Dalet and histories of that era by the “new historians” eg Benny Morris, Ilan pappe, etc.
      - dunekid 2y ago
        Not even a Myth. But a lie told and retold several times, the Zionists deemed it to be the truth and the only truth. But the Nakba has always been seen here, through the victims' tears and the colonialists' documents.
    - NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
      > Jewish land acquisition in Palestine before 1948 was often through legal purchases from Arab landowners. Sometimes the mob wants to buy up real estate. And if people are willing to sell, it's just a transaction with varying shades of exploitation (knowing that it will be worth more when they resell). But if those people don't want to sell, the mob doesn't just offer larger sums. There are then elements of intimidation. Strange cars drive past your home at night. You see big ugly men staring at you in a menacing fashion when you're out in public, then they wave and walk away. Bricks through windows. Anonymous threats of grave harm or murder. The escalation is constant. Anyone who sells at that point knows better than to start blabbing that they did so only because their lives were in danger... the people who extorted them don't much like being in the news even after the fact. But that's the mob. I'm sure it was different in the first half of the 20th century in the place now known as Israel.
crdrost 2y ago
>> and the Zionist ethos > I find this sort of statement very odd in what otherwise sounds like a lightweight but timeless telling of what they've found. Correct. Times of Israel [1] shares some other quotes and connects this particular purpose statement not to the research but to the response: > Since the study results were publicized last week, there have been hundreds of “interesting reactions” on Hebrew social media and news sites, Stiebel said. [...] “It is interesting how personally people take this. These are events that happened 2,000 years ago! Masada is a kind of mirror into Israeli society – how we look at Masada shows a lot of the political and social changes society has undergone.” Where the quote in question is in the [...] above, with some other remarks. So the comment that this is part of “Israeli DNA and the Zionist ethos” I think is not meant to necessarily denigrate those ideas, but just to comment on the fact that stories are important, we take them as part of our identity, these research results don’t have to threaten the soul of the narrative (i.e. there's no claim that the siege didn't happen or wasn't brutal or didn't last longer than expected), but you do have these kinds of nationalist conservative factions who register even the slightest tweaks to their internal narratives (3 years to 3 months) as personal attacks on their own identities. He's just labeling the group that is most prone to this, but I don't think he means the labeling to be pejorative. (Roughly the Christian equivalent is that I know a lot of folks who use “fundamentalist” and esp “fundie” as pejorative, but I also know a bunch of Christians who bear that title proudly.) [1]: https://www.timesofisrael.com/masada-legend-upended-the-romans-came-saw-and-conquered-quickly-and-brutally/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/masada-legend-upended-the-roma...

7e 2y ago

The historical timeline for the siege is unreliable, but somehow the number of soldiers is rock-solid accurate? And, further, it is known that they were able to complete their siege works unharried? This paper at best provides a best-case estimate. At worst, it's trying very hard to find evidence to support a fashionable belief that the siege was short.

readthenotes1 2y ago

Greeks: Let me think about it. I'll tell you how much stone to move as soon as I get my straight -edge fixed. Romans: Git 'er done.