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Median US retirement savings for those entering retirement (65+) is around $200k. This generation had the largest wealth expansion in human history. That’s abou

Median US retirement savings for those entering retirement (65+) is around $200k. This generation had the largest wealth expansion in human history. That’s about $500 saved per year for 40 years at 9% inflation adjusted return (easy to get with an S&P 500 index fund). Less than $50/month. They could have chosen to save more; they chose not to. https://www.officialdata.org/us/stocks/s-p-500/1984?amount=100&endYear=2024 https://www.officialdata.org/us/stocks/s-p-500/1984?amount=1...

toomuchtodo 2y ago
Interpret the data however you want. Policy through votes will come for the wealth eventually, and the folks at the top hold most of it. Progress is a function of cohort turnover in this regard. Old people with old ideas age out, young people age into voting. > About 93% of U.S. households' stock market wealth is held by the top 10%. ; While it's true that a record high 58% of American households do own stocks via mutual funds or as individual shares, in the aggregate the amount of stock most of these folks own is tiny. https://www.axios.com/2024/01/10/wealthy-own-record-share-stock-market https://www.axios.com/2024/01/10/wealthy-own-record-share-st...
- linotype 2y ago
  Yes, because many people choose not to save. While not everyone could save $100/month (double the amount I mentioned), almost everyone over the age of say 25 can. This was attainable for the majority even 40 years ago. Again, Americans can save more, the savings rate skyrocketed for instance during the pandemic even as unemployment increased dramatically, they choose not to: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQFv4v64zyWAyLP3f6YEN6pvjffSUsxsGkI7Q&usqp=CAU https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQFv4v6...
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    > Yes, because many people choose not to save. You keep saying this, but this is not what the data shows. https://www.google.com/search?q=retirement+crisis https://www.google.com/search?q=retirement+crisis https://www.ncoa.org/article/addressing-the-nations-retirement-crisis-the-80-percent-financially-struggling/ https://www.ncoa.org/article/addressing-the-nations-retireme... https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/02/economy/americans-struggle-to-save-as-retirement-crisis-looms/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/02/economy/americans-struggle-to... https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/about/news-room/opinion/2024/01/18/america-has-a-retirement-crisis-we-need-to-make-it-easier-to-save https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/about/news-room/opinion/2024/01... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2024-05-24/retirement-crisis-38-trillion-in-us-pensions-401-k-s-annuities-isn-t-enough https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2024-05-24/retiremen... | https://archive.today/OZOWz https://archive.today/OZOWz https://www.lynalden.com/september-2024-newsletter/ https://www.lynalden.com/september-2024-newsletter/
    - linotype 2y ago
      Those are all links to symptoms, not causes. > 80% of households with older adults—or 47 million of such households—are financially struggling today or are at risk of falling into economic insecurity as they age. I mean, of course people without any savings are struggling financially. I feel like I’m missing something here, the problem seems obvious.
      - FractalHQ 2y ago
        You need extra money to save it.
- linotype 2y ago
  Well, I did provide data showing they can save but don’t, see the graph.
- eadmund 2y ago
  > Policy through votes will come for the wealth eventually No doubt, but might doesn’t make right. Theft is still stealing if 50% of the population plus one approve of it.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    The idea that taxes are theft applies to a specific mental model [1]. Whether that model is relied on for policy is up to political governance. It seems unlikely though [2] [3] [4], based on electorate sentiment, composition, and turnover rate. I cannot speak to this specific mental model, but it is important to be aware that it exists when interfacing with people who have such a belief system. [1] https://academic.oup.com/book/47090/chapter-abstract/415903001 https://academic.oup.com/book/47090/chapter-abstract/4159030... [2] https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2024/04/PP_2024.4.9_partisan-coalitions_4-01.png https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/wp-content/uploads/site... [3] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/07/top-tax-frustrations-for-americans-the-feeling-that-some-corporations-wealthy-people-dont-pay-fair-share/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/07/top-tax-f... [4] https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/nearly-three-quarters-millionaires-polled-g20-countries-support-higher-taxes-wealth https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/nearly-three-quarter...
  - Vegenoid 2y ago
    If the majority of a people consider a thing to not be theft, then there’s a strong argument that it’s more not theft than is, since theft is defined by and for humans. Theft is not simply taking something from someone, it is doing so unjustly, immorally, and/or unlawfully. Definitions of what is just, moral, and lawful vary significantly. Of course, you must also consider how a thing is defined across time, and how stable that definition is.

toomuchtodo 2y ago

Interpret the data however you want. Policy through votes will come for the wealth eventually, and the folks at the top hold most of it. Progress is a function of cohort turnover in this regard. Old people with old ideas age out, young people age into voting. > About 93% of U.S. households' stock market wealth is held by the top 10%. ; While it's true that a record high 58% of American households do own stocks via mutual funds or as individual shares, in the aggregate the amount of stock most of these folks own is tiny. https://www.axios.com/2024/01/10/wealthy-own-record-share-stock-market https://www.axios.com/2024/01/10/wealthy-own-record-share-st...

linotype 2y ago
Yes, because many people choose not to save. While not everyone could save $100/month (double the amount I mentioned), almost everyone over the age of say 25 can. This was attainable for the majority even 40 years ago. Again, Americans can save more, the savings rate skyrocketed for instance during the pandemic even as unemployment increased dramatically, they choose not to: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQFv4v64zyWAyLP3f6YEN6pvjffSUsxsGkI7Q&usqp=CAU https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQFv4v6...
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  > Yes, because many people choose not to save. You keep saying this, but this is not what the data shows. https://www.google.com/search?q=retirement+crisis https://www.google.com/search?q=retirement+crisis https://www.ncoa.org/article/addressing-the-nations-retirement-crisis-the-80-percent-financially-struggling/ https://www.ncoa.org/article/addressing-the-nations-retireme... https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/02/economy/americans-struggle-to-save-as-retirement-crisis-looms/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/02/economy/americans-struggle-to... https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/about/news-room/opinion/2024/01/18/america-has-a-retirement-crisis-we-need-to-make-it-easier-to-save https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/about/news-room/opinion/2024/01... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2024-05-24/retirement-crisis-38-trillion-in-us-pensions-401-k-s-annuities-isn-t-enough https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2024-05-24/retiremen... | https://archive.today/OZOWz https://archive.today/OZOWz https://www.lynalden.com/september-2024-newsletter/ https://www.lynalden.com/september-2024-newsletter/
  - linotype 2y ago
    Those are all links to symptoms, not causes. > 80% of households with older adults—or 47 million of such households—are financially struggling today or are at risk of falling into economic insecurity as they age. I mean, of course people without any savings are struggling financially. I feel like I’m missing something here, the problem seems obvious.
    - FractalHQ 2y ago
      You need extra money to save it.
linotype 2y ago
Well, I did provide data showing they can save but don’t, see the graph.
eadmund 2y ago
> Policy through votes will come for the wealth eventually No doubt, but might doesn’t make right. Theft is still stealing if 50% of the population plus one approve of it.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  The idea that taxes are theft applies to a specific mental model [1]. Whether that model is relied on for policy is up to political governance. It seems unlikely though [2] [3] [4], based on electorate sentiment, composition, and turnover rate. I cannot speak to this specific mental model, but it is important to be aware that it exists when interfacing with people who have such a belief system. [1] https://academic.oup.com/book/47090/chapter-abstract/415903001 https://academic.oup.com/book/47090/chapter-abstract/4159030... [2] https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2024/04/PP_2024.4.9_partisan-coalitions_4-01.png https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/wp-content/uploads/site... [3] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/07/top-tax-frustrations-for-americans-the-feeling-that-some-corporations-wealthy-people-dont-pay-fair-share/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/07/top-tax-f... [4] https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/nearly-three-quarters-millionaires-polled-g20-countries-support-higher-taxes-wealth https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/nearly-three-quarter...
- Vegenoid 2y ago
  If the majority of a people consider a thing to not be theft, then there’s a strong argument that it’s more not theft than is, since theft is defined by and for humans. Theft is not simply taking something from someone, it is doing so unjustly, immorally, and/or unlawfully. Definitions of what is just, moral, and lawful vary significantly. Of course, you must also consider how a thing is defined across time, and how stable that definition is.