5 ms·

I've been saying this since at least 2009 when the company I worked for was sending credit card info from card readers across the network in plain text and they

I've been saying this since at least 2009 when the company I worked for was sending credit card info from card readers across the network in plain text and they dragged their feet to fix it even though they knew we were violating some serious SOX policies. At another company in 2015, I discovered we were sending user credentials for a large hospitals in plain text across the network and need to fix this ASAP. When I brought this up to management, they shrugged and said "it's been this way for years and we have other priorities". After a large New York hospital was breached, I suddenly had management show up to my desk in panic asking how we can fix the issue immediately. I came up with a nice write-up for both our company and the hospital IT groups on how to secure our infrastructure with certs and whatnot and they still half-assed it with self-signed certificates. In 2018 I worked for a fin-tech company in charge of some A-list celebrity 401K portfolios. We had a default admin password for our production database. ZERO encryption on the data; including SSN, birth-date, phone numbers, addresses, beneficiaries info, etc. Last year one of the leading payroll providers in the country (USA) I used to work for started aggressively out-sourcing the software and allegedly had a really nasty security breach due to a back-door inserted by one of the out-sourced team members. It's alleged that leadership threatened employees if they disclosed the incident to anyone outside a key group of members. Nobody give a damn about security until their identity is stolen and they have to spend hours/days/weeks/months putting their lives back together from the fallout.

lofaszvanitt 2y ago
Until they are fined 10% of yearly revenue. That's why you need a strong government.
- hybrid_study 2y ago
  agree in spirit. better federal laws to hold companies accountable
- eadmund 2y ago
  An alternate, market-based solution would be insurance companies who impose requirements for insurance. That increases the chances of finding an economic balance between security and productivity. A government regulation applies to everyone, even if it no longer makes sense: an insurance company whose requirements are out-dated will be out-competed by others, while an insurance company whose requirements are insufficient will go out of business.
  - leonadato 2y ago
    It's interesting that you mention this. It's part of the follow up article coming soon.
  - fsflover 2y ago
    > An alternate, market-based solution would be insurance companies who impose requirements for insurance. This is exactly why the CrowdStrike disaster happened: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41011065 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41011065
  - fmajid 2y ago
    The market for cybersecurity insurance is collapsing: https://www.theinformation.com/articles/companies-are-ditching-cybersecurity-insurance-as-premiums-rise-coverage-shrinks https://www.theinformation.com/articles/companies-are-ditchi... but the OP's arguments also apply to insurance, yet businesses buy insurance every day. The difference is the fines and liability for data breaches are so paltry it is the rational thing to do not to invest in security. This can only change through legislative action. I wouldn't hold my breath.
- hcfman 2y ago
  Can we not also have really extreme punishments for government officials that break the law?
  - acuozzo 2y ago
    Checks & balances do not work in the absence of empowered incorruptible entities because of collusion. At best, they just slow things down.
thaumasiotes 2y ago
> I came up with a nice write-up for both our company and the hospital IT groups on how to secure our infrastructure with certs and whatnot and they still half-assed it with self-signed certificates. What's the problem with self-signed certificates? Did they not know each other?
- uid65534 2y ago
  IME when people start using self signed certificates they trust anything that is presented, with no pinning. That means that so long as you MITM it with something with it's own self signed cert it will work just fine.
  - PeterisP 2y ago
    This is why "self-signed" is a misleading term, as it means both literally self-signed, as in, "we have added root of trust that we control and our devices trust only certificates signed by ourselves, as cryptographically verified", and also "our devices trust any certificate signed by anyone and ignore errors", and doesn't make a distinction between these two very different cases. Especially for internal server-to-server connections there shouldn't be any security weaknesses in a fully self-signed architecture where the same scripts that deploy the certificates will also deploy the configuration on other servers specifying that this is the only thing that should be trusted.
shadowgovt 2y ago
Financial companies (and companies providing financial services) are protected by auditing and the law around finances, not infrastructural security. This is a major best-practice breaking point between two ecosystems of software service. In the banking sector, you can still, to this day, try to get away with stealing money by forging a paper check and hoping the bank honors it. And they may let you walk away with the cash! What protects the system is that when the fraud is detected via auditing and resolution, actual law enforcement will come find you. The early web never had such legal protections ("Wikipedia's database was hacked? What even is a wikipedia? They got their facts disrupted? What does that mean?"), so they were forced to grow infrastructural protections or be consumed by attackers. But there's a case to be made that the costs inherent with hardening infrastructure like that are unnecessary to bear when the law will actually show up to stop the criminals messing with your infrastructure. It's counter-intuitive for those of us raised on the "You can only rely on yourself; everyone else is a potential attacker" side of the fence, but it's a way to be.
godelski 2y ago
I have a feeling that we've developed an economy that's too focused on short term goals and this prevents us from making more success. Short term goals matter, but not at the cost of long term. I think these are the main problems and why it's hard to tackle. I think they can help prevent issues but I'd like to hear other suggestions: 1) You can't measure maintenance or security benefits the same way as you can measure costs of failures. You can measure the cost it takes to implement, but when you do you can't measure the counterfactual cost of if you hadn't. It's not actualized. But I'm confident maintenance is always cheaper than repairs. Don't fix things that aren't broken, but do fix things before they break. We need to learn the difference. 2) the world is complex and many costs are outsourced and distributed. I like to think of this like the inverse software success. Software is great because once made you can copy it trivialy and distribute it. But the down side is the mistakes propagate too! So something that may only cause a second delay is seen as miniscule but it's not when you consider a hundred million users using it every day. Enshitification is about these little things adding up and accumulating. 3) we avoid slack like the plague. I don't mean slacking off, but slack in the system. You don't make a ship and only have enough lifeboats for exactly the number of passengers. You need more because you can't assume everyone perfectly makes it to the right life boat, especially in an emergency. Covid should have been a real wakeup call but the global economy shouldn't shut down anytime a single ship gets stuck. 4) doing good and quality work has the stability of an inverse pendulum. Most evil and shit isn't caused by malice, it's that it's harder to do good and with longer and more complex tasks it's easier for something to go wrong along the way which then snowballs. So a big belief I have is trust we need to slow down if we want to speed up. Move fast and best things is great when problem solving but you need to also also go back and clean up all the mess you've left behind. We've become so accustomed to technical debt we aren't even recognizing how much we have. We can't be just focused on the next quarter. We're in a much more complex world. Even early humans had to plan for winter. I know what I'm asking for is difficult but nothing worth doing is usually easy. All of us have done hard things and continue to do hard things. But importantly, try not to distribute and amplify mistakes. Squash them when they're small. Don't ask for permission, just fix things.
Aloisius 2y ago
I'd argue that at least some of the problem is that we are forced to record fundamentally insecure data. If we could replace things like SSNs, passport numbers, credit card numbers, etc. with org-specific tokens/certificates, they'd be largely useless to anyone else. Sadly, no one cares enough about security to fix the problem though, not even governments.
- PeterisP 2y ago
  We are replacing such things, although USA is a decade or so behind the rest of the world due to various legitimate sociopolitical and historical reasons. In most places worldwide identifiers equivalent to SSNs and passport numbers aren't really treated as financial secrets; they may not be totally public due to certain privacy aspects, but they generally don't result in financial identity theft, that's a fixable problem of certain regions (like USA and a few others). Similarly, moving to proper credit card authentication (chip&pin or wireless chip when card is present, 3dsecure when not, etc) has made many credit card numbers mostly useless for thieves unless accompanied by a more serious compromise. But all these things above have been implemented only because (and where, and when) the actual companies became financially liable for the consequences - as long as the losses/fraud/etc hit only the users/consumers, there is no motivation to fix anything. Shift the liability to the company which accepts that fundamentally insecure data as good enough, and they'll figure out some way to implement a secure process.
  - ed-209 2y ago
    You make an interesting point about the lack of incentive to protect others' private data - it may only hurt the subject of the data and leave a negligent company unscathed. But how might we shift the liability from those companies without encouraging regulatory agencies to maximize data theft?
    - PeterisP 2y ago
      I am a bit confused why shifting liability would be linked to maximizing data theft, and why would that data theft be done by some regulatory agencies - can you elaborate? The liability shift that I had in mind is mostly about immunity from liability for the impersonated person, like, if some criminal defrauds a company by claiming to be Bob, then shifting the liability for that risk (compared to currently common cases in USA) to that company which had lax processes and was defrauded would be various consumer protection mechanisms for things like credit score, preventing that company from trying to collect that money from Bob, preventing them from reporting that Bob owes them money (as he doesn't) and requiring that company to correct any adverse credit reports if they had already made them, etc, various means to ensure that the fraud stays between the fraudster and the defrauded company and doesn't affect the person whose identity was falsely used; and removing the implication that they are somehow responsible if that information (which they aren't legally required to keep secret) is used by someone else.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

lofaszvanitt 2y ago

Until they are fined 10% of yearly revenue. That's why you need a strong government.

hybrid_study 2y ago
agree in spirit. better federal laws to hold companies accountable
eadmund 2y ago
An alternate, market-based solution would be insurance companies who impose requirements for insurance. That increases the chances of finding an economic balance between security and productivity. A government regulation applies to everyone, even if it no longer makes sense: an insurance company whose requirements are out-dated will be out-competed by others, while an insurance company whose requirements are insufficient will go out of business.
- leonadato 2y ago
  It's interesting that you mention this. It's part of the follow up article coming soon.
- fsflover 2y ago
  > An alternate, market-based solution would be insurance companies who impose requirements for insurance. This is exactly why the CrowdStrike disaster happened: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41011065 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41011065
- fmajid 2y ago
  The market for cybersecurity insurance is collapsing: https://www.theinformation.com/articles/companies-are-ditching-cybersecurity-insurance-as-premiums-rise-coverage-shrinks https://www.theinformation.com/articles/companies-are-ditchi... but the OP's arguments also apply to insurance, yet businesses buy insurance every day. The difference is the fines and liability for data breaches are so paltry it is the rational thing to do not to invest in security. This can only change through legislative action. I wouldn't hold my breath.
hcfman 2y ago
Can we not also have really extreme punishments for government officials that break the law?
- acuozzo 2y ago
  Checks & balances do not work in the absence of empowered incorruptible entities because of collusion. At best, they just slow things down.

thaumasiotes 2y ago

> I came up with a nice write-up for both our company and the hospital IT groups on how to secure our infrastructure with certs and whatnot and they still half-assed it with self-signed certificates. What's the problem with self-signed certificates? Did they not know each other?

uid65534 2y ago
IME when people start using self signed certificates they trust anything that is presented, with no pinning. That means that so long as you MITM it with something with it's own self signed cert it will work just fine.
- PeterisP 2y ago
  This is why "self-signed" is a misleading term, as it means both literally self-signed, as in, "we have added root of trust that we control and our devices trust only certificates signed by ourselves, as cryptographically verified", and also "our devices trust any certificate signed by anyone and ignore errors", and doesn't make a distinction between these two very different cases. Especially for internal server-to-server connections there shouldn't be any security weaknesses in a fully self-signed architecture where the same scripts that deploy the certificates will also deploy the configuration on other servers specifying that this is the only thing that should be trusted.

shadowgovt 2y ago

Financial companies (and companies providing financial services) are protected by auditing and the law around finances, not infrastructural security. This is a major best-practice breaking point between two ecosystems of software service. In the banking sector, you can still, to this day, try to get away with stealing money by forging a paper check and hoping the bank honors it. And they may let you walk away with the cash! What protects the system is that when the fraud is detected via auditing and resolution, actual law enforcement will come find you. The early web never had such legal protections ("Wikipedia's database was hacked? What even is a wikipedia? They got their facts disrupted? What does that mean?"), so they were forced to grow infrastructural protections or be consumed by attackers. But there's a case to be made that the costs inherent with hardening infrastructure like that are unnecessary to bear when the law will actually show up to stop the criminals messing with your infrastructure. It's counter-intuitive for those of us raised on the "You can only rely on yourself; everyone else is a potential attacker" side of the fence, but it's a way to be.

godelski 2y ago

I have a feeling that we've developed an economy that's too focused on short term goals and this prevents us from making more success. Short term goals matter, but not at the cost of long term. I think these are the main problems and why it's hard to tackle. I think they can help prevent issues but I'd like to hear other suggestions: 1) You can't measure maintenance or security benefits the same way as you can measure costs of failures. You can measure the cost it takes to implement, but when you do you can't measure the counterfactual cost of if you hadn't. It's not actualized. But I'm confident maintenance is always cheaper than repairs. Don't fix things that aren't broken, but do fix things before they break. We need to learn the difference. 2) the world is complex and many costs are outsourced and distributed. I like to think of this like the inverse software success. Software is great because once made you can copy it trivialy and distribute it. But the down side is the mistakes propagate too! So something that may only cause a second delay is seen as miniscule but it's not when you consider a hundred million users using it every day. Enshitification is about these little things adding up and accumulating. 3) we avoid slack like the plague. I don't mean slacking off, but slack in the system. You don't make a ship and only have enough lifeboats for exactly the number of passengers. You need more because you can't assume everyone perfectly makes it to the right life boat, especially in an emergency. Covid should have been a real wakeup call but the global economy shouldn't shut down anytime a single ship gets stuck. 4) doing good and quality work has the stability of an inverse pendulum. Most evil and shit isn't caused by malice, it's that it's harder to do good and with longer and more complex tasks it's easier for something to go wrong along the way which then snowballs. So a big belief I have is trust we need to slow down if we want to speed up. Move fast and best things is great when problem solving but you need to also also go back and clean up all the mess you've left behind. We've become so accustomed to technical debt we aren't even recognizing how much we have. We can't be just focused on the next quarter. We're in a much more complex world. Even early humans had to plan for winter. I know what I'm asking for is difficult but nothing worth doing is usually easy. All of us have done hard things and continue to do hard things. But importantly, try not to distribute and amplify mistakes. Squash them when they're small. Don't ask for permission, just fix things.

Aloisius 2y ago

I'd argue that at least some of the problem is that we are forced to record fundamentally insecure data. If we could replace things like SSNs, passport numbers, credit card numbers, etc. with org-specific tokens/certificates, they'd be largely useless to anyone else. Sadly, no one cares enough about security to fix the problem though, not even governments.

PeterisP 2y ago
We are replacing such things, although USA is a decade or so behind the rest of the world due to various legitimate sociopolitical and historical reasons. In most places worldwide identifiers equivalent to SSNs and passport numbers aren't really treated as financial secrets; they may not be totally public due to certain privacy aspects, but they generally don't result in financial identity theft, that's a fixable problem of certain regions (like USA and a few others). Similarly, moving to proper credit card authentication (chip&pin or wireless chip when card is present, 3dsecure when not, etc) has made many credit card numbers mostly useless for thieves unless accompanied by a more serious compromise. But all these things above have been implemented only because (and where, and when) the actual companies became financially liable for the consequences - as long as the losses/fraud/etc hit only the users/consumers, there is no motivation to fix anything. Shift the liability to the company which accepts that fundamentally insecure data as good enough, and they'll figure out some way to implement a secure process.
- ed-209 2y ago
  You make an interesting point about the lack of incentive to protect others' private data - it may only hurt the subject of the data and leave a negligent company unscathed. But how might we shift the liability from those companies without encouraging regulatory agencies to maximize data theft?
  - PeterisP 2y ago
    I am a bit confused why shifting liability would be linked to maximizing data theft, and why would that data theft be done by some regulatory agencies - can you elaborate? The liability shift that I had in mind is mostly about immunity from liability for the impersonated person, like, if some criminal defrauds a company by claiming to be Bob, then shifting the liability for that risk (compared to currently common cases in USA) to that company which had lax processes and was defrauded would be various consumer protection mechanisms for things like credit score, preventing that company from trying to collect that money from Bob, preventing them from reporting that Bob owes them money (as he doesn't) and requiring that company to correct any adverse credit reports if they had already made them, etc, various means to ensure that the fraud stays between the fraudster and the defrauded company and doesn't affect the person whose identity was falsely used; and removing the implication that they are somehow responsible if that information (which they aren't legally required to keep secret) is used by someone else.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]