3 ms·

One critical point in 1491, by Charles C Mann, is that pre-contact, American Indians generally had a better quality of life than Europeans. Link to book: https

One critical point in 1491, by Charles C Mann, is that pre-contact, American Indians generally had a better quality of life than Europeans. Link to book: https://www.amazon.com/1491-Second-Revelations-Americas-Columbus-ebook/dp/B000JMKVE4/ref=sr_1_4?sr=8-4 https://www.amazon.com/1491-Second-Revelations-Americas-Colu...

WalterBright 2y ago
I'm not so sure about that. Studies of the bones of pre-Columbian Indians in America showed that they suffered from repeated famine. I read an article years ago that women would spend all day kneeling grinding corn, and it would ruin their joints. They also did not have horses to do the heavy work. And used slave labor. I don't think we know enough about the pre-Columbian Indians to make a solid evaluation about their lifestyle. Even estimates of how many there were vary by an order of magnitude.
- bluGill 2y ago
  It is hard to know what things were like as, horses, smallpox (and other disease), firearms, and other general dry goods (cast iron pans) all worked there way across mostly ahead of Europeans (or with traders who were not concerned about keeping the type of records we want and if they did keep records it was to sell their activities to the public back home (public might just be kings) and so they had reasons to make up a story for people who couldn't verify the story (and who mostly cared that the gold was coming so a false story that helped sell those people were evil worth destroying was welcomed) What we know about their lifestyle was for the most part how they lived after all the above arrived, but each is expected to create major culture changes.
skybrian 2y ago
I think that's a pretty low bar? It doesn't matter which you pick, they're both going to be much worse than life is now for most of us reading this. It's not pre-contact, but The Cutting-Off Way seems like a good source on Native American warfare. https://www.amazon.com/Cutting-Off-Way-Indigenous-Warfare-1500-1800/dp/1469673789 https://www.amazon.com/Cutting-Off-Way-Indigenous-Warfare-15...
- swatcoder 2y ago
  > I think that's a pretty low bar? It doesn't matter which you pick, they're both going to be much worse than life is now for most of us reading this. I don't think it takes away from what you're trying to say, but the irony of this paragraph is delicious given that "most of us reading this" are in the global 1% of today, if not higher, and in some astronomical percentile as measured against history. When used as the measure against whatever historical deprivation and insecurity there was, we make for a pretty low bar!
  - skybrian 2y ago
    Yeah, I was just trying to make a very rough comparison. Maybe we could go back to the statistics on Our World In Data then? They are about global poverty and it does seem to be improving.
Aunche 2y ago
The Wikipedia summary of 1491 makes it sound like it's basically a book filled with fun facts about how American Indians societies were more complex than what most people give them credit for. It's not a serious analysis of whose lives were "better."
moffkalast 2y ago
> The astonishing Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan had running water and immaculately clean streets, and was larger than any contemporary European city I mean.. sure. But they were also an imperialist power that could grab what they wanted from neighboring nations, militarized like Sparta. They had such a great time because they made others work for them, not unlike the Romans or the Brits. Before automation the main way to get a better standard of living was to have slaves.

WalterBright 2y ago

I'm not so sure about that. Studies of the bones of pre-Columbian Indians in America showed that they suffered from repeated famine. I read an article years ago that women would spend all day kneeling grinding corn, and it would ruin their joints. They also did not have horses to do the heavy work. And used slave labor. I don't think we know enough about the pre-Columbian Indians to make a solid evaluation about their lifestyle. Even estimates of how many there were vary by an order of magnitude.

bluGill 2y ago
It is hard to know what things were like as, horses, smallpox (and other disease), firearms, and other general dry goods (cast iron pans) all worked there way across mostly ahead of Europeans (or with traders who were not concerned about keeping the type of records we want and if they did keep records it was to sell their activities to the public back home (public might just be kings) and so they had reasons to make up a story for people who couldn't verify the story (and who mostly cared that the gold was coming so a false story that helped sell those people were evil worth destroying was welcomed) What we know about their lifestyle was for the most part how they lived after all the above arrived, but each is expected to create major culture changes.

skybrian 2y ago

I think that's a pretty low bar? It doesn't matter which you pick, they're both going to be much worse than life is now for most of us reading this. It's not pre-contact, but The Cutting-Off Way seems like a good source on Native American warfare. https://www.amazon.com/Cutting-Off-Way-Indigenous-Warfare-1500-1800/dp/1469673789 https://www.amazon.com/Cutting-Off-Way-Indigenous-Warfare-15...

swatcoder 2y ago
> I think that's a pretty low bar? It doesn't matter which you pick, they're both going to be much worse than life is now for most of us reading this. I don't think it takes away from what you're trying to say, but the irony of this paragraph is delicious given that "most of us reading this" are in the global 1% of today, if not higher, and in some astronomical percentile as measured against history. When used as the measure against whatever historical deprivation and insecurity there was, we make for a pretty low bar!
- skybrian 2y ago
  Yeah, I was just trying to make a very rough comparison. Maybe we could go back to the statistics on Our World In Data then? They are about global poverty and it does seem to be improving.

Aunche 2y ago

The Wikipedia summary of 1491 makes it sound like it's basically a book filled with fun facts about how American Indians societies were more complex than what most people give them credit for. It's not a serious analysis of whose lives were "better."

moffkalast 2y ago

> The astonishing Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan had running water and immaculately clean streets, and was larger than any contemporary European city I mean.. sure. But they were also an imperialist power that could grab what they wanted from neighboring nations, militarized like Sparta. They had such a great time because they made others work for them, not unlike the Romans or the Brits. Before automation the main way to get a better standard of living was to have slaves.