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> I’ve come to realize now that the demise of Python has been greatly exaggerated Has it? Because this is literally the first I've heard anyone claim (or claim

> I’ve come to realize now that the demise of Python has been greatly exaggerated Has it? Because this is literally the first I've heard anyone claim (or claim that others have claimed) Python is on a downward trajectory. If anything it's become the de facto standard language for anyone doing anything, other than low-level hardware programming; from data science glue code to web applications to one-off scripts to backend pipelines to command line tools, it seems like "Python" is the default answer these days.

baq 2y ago
Typescript on node is low key amazing on the backend. It’s got a rusty problem though - build times suck on large code bases.
- zachrip 2y ago
  Do you mean transpilation time, or typechecking time?
  - keybored 2y ago
    Build time ought to mean compilation time/“transpilation time” since you presumably need the build output.
  - baq 2y ago
    The thing that's actually useful, so type checking. esbuild strips the type information without verification plenty fast, but at that point why even bother.
- TheFragenTaken 2y ago
  I just wish runtimes could take advantage of Typescript, and use type hints in performance improvements. Deno, and bun, currently do not, despite running Typescript "natively".
  - mmastrac 2y ago
    The problem with TypeScript is that it’s purely “advisory.” The actual shape of the objects at runtime might not match the declared types in the system, and once type-checking is complete, it’s a free-for-all. That being said, you can use AssemblyScript, which offers a “type hints that optimize” approach. Unlike TypeScript, AssemblyScript is compiled to WebAssembly and leverages type information. Under the hood, V8 performs its own shape analysis on objects to optimize performance. It’s quite effective and can handle a lot of optimization scenarios, though it would be interesting if V8 could use TypeScript’s type information to pre-seed the optimizer with known object shapes (it does not currently).
    - TheFragenTaken 2y ago
      Indeed would be interesting. Another one of the downsides of everything running on v8. It just feel it gives people the "wrong" impression, even if it helps (massively) with DX to run TS natively.
throwaway314155 2y ago
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- keybored 2y ago
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  - throwaway314155 2y ago
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candiddevmike 2y ago
Pythons biggest risk right now is stability. Seems like things keep breaking between "minor" releases. You used to never have to worry what minor version you were using, but within the past couple of years it has become very important.
- nicoburns 2y ago
  IMO pythons biggest risk is tooling. Installing and maintaining a Python toolchain, virtual environments, installing 3rd party deps, etc is pretty painful compared to languages/runtimes like Node.js, Rust, C#, PHP, etc (which admittedly are some of the better languages in this regard). It's not the biggest of deals (and I doubt it will significantly hurt Python adoption for niches like data science which have complex installation requirements anyway). But it definitely keeps me from using Python for "quick scripts" which it should otherwise be a good choice for. And it's frankly embarrassing that a supposedly modern language is barely doing better than C in this regard (ok, it's quite a bit better than C, but still a way behind what I would expect). Having said that, stability is also a big deal, so maybe you're right. Perhaps both are a big deal.
  - 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
    While I think your concern is a bit overblown, I would concur that tooling is a Python gap. Not because there is any big deficiency in what they can do to manage a project, but because there are just too many options. There is no blessed workflow. The Python leadership has refused to take a stance on picking a winner. The power vacuum has lead to multiple competing tools, which all do things a little differently. I have taught Python to a few people and the initial ramp up is embarrassing. I cannot point to a guide on Python.org that says This Is The Way(TM). Instead, I have to give an opinionated workflow full of caveats on how to setup an environment, because there is no “correct” way to get started. I really do not care who wins. I have had to adopt and transition many packages over the years. Just pick something.
- drcongo 2y ago
  Do you have any examples of breaking changes in minor releases? I use Python every day but haven't come across any, but then I'm not doing data analysis with it so there's probably a huge chunk of Python that I never even think about.
moffkalast 2y ago
> to web applications Like Flask and other backend stuff, or has someone figured out how to turn Python into a WASM and we're all doomed?

baq 2y ago

Typescript on node is low key amazing on the backend. It’s got a rusty problem though - build times suck on large code bases.

zachrip 2y ago
Do you mean transpilation time, or typechecking time?
- keybored 2y ago
  Build time ought to mean compilation time/“transpilation time” since you presumably need the build output.
- baq 2y ago
  The thing that's actually useful, so type checking. esbuild strips the type information without verification plenty fast, but at that point why even bother.
TheFragenTaken 2y ago
I just wish runtimes could take advantage of Typescript, and use type hints in performance improvements. Deno, and bun, currently do not, despite running Typescript "natively".
- mmastrac 2y ago
  The problem with TypeScript is that it’s purely “advisory.” The actual shape of the objects at runtime might not match the declared types in the system, and once type-checking is complete, it’s a free-for-all. That being said, you can use AssemblyScript, which offers a “type hints that optimize” approach. Unlike TypeScript, AssemblyScript is compiled to WebAssembly and leverages type information. Under the hood, V8 performs its own shape analysis on objects to optimize performance. It’s quite effective and can handle a lot of optimization scenarios, though it would be interesting if V8 could use TypeScript’s type information to pre-seed the optimizer with known object shapes (it does not currently).
  - TheFragenTaken 2y ago
    Indeed would be interesting. Another one of the downsides of everything running on v8. It just feel it gives people the "wrong" impression, even if it helps (massively) with DX to run TS natively.

throwaway314155 2y ago

[flagged]

keybored 2y ago
[flagged]
- throwaway314155 2y ago
  [flagged]

candiddevmike 2y ago

Pythons biggest risk right now is stability. Seems like things keep breaking between "minor" releases. You used to never have to worry what minor version you were using, but within the past couple of years it has become very important.

nicoburns 2y ago
IMO pythons biggest risk is tooling. Installing and maintaining a Python toolchain, virtual environments, installing 3rd party deps, etc is pretty painful compared to languages/runtimes like Node.js, Rust, C#, PHP, etc (which admittedly are some of the better languages in this regard). It's not the biggest of deals (and I doubt it will significantly hurt Python adoption for niches like data science which have complex installation requirements anyway). But it definitely keeps me from using Python for "quick scripts" which it should otherwise be a good choice for. And it's frankly embarrassing that a supposedly modern language is barely doing better than C in this regard (ok, it's quite a bit better than C, but still a way behind what I would expect). Having said that, stability is also a big deal, so maybe you're right. Perhaps both are a big deal.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
  While I think your concern is a bit overblown, I would concur that tooling is a Python gap. Not because there is any big deficiency in what they can do to manage a project, but because there are just too many options. There is no blessed workflow. The Python leadership has refused to take a stance on picking a winner. The power vacuum has lead to multiple competing tools, which all do things a little differently. I have taught Python to a few people and the initial ramp up is embarrassing. I cannot point to a guide on Python.org that says This Is The Way(TM). Instead, I have to give an opinionated workflow full of caveats on how to setup an environment, because there is no “correct” way to get started. I really do not care who wins. I have had to adopt and transition many packages over the years. Just pick something.
drcongo 2y ago
Do you have any examples of breaking changes in minor releases? I use Python every day but haven't come across any, but then I'm not doing data analysis with it so there's probably a huge chunk of Python that I never even think about.

moffkalast 2y ago

> to web applications Like Flask and other backend stuff, or has someone figured out how to turn Python into a WASM and we're all doomed?