4 ms·

Problem is that it's not sustainable. We can't defend ourselves, our economies are de-industrializing, we have right and left radical taking over political spec

Problem is that it's not sustainable. We can't defend ourselves, our economies are de-industrializing, we have right and left radical taking over political spectrum all the while our pension and healthcare systems are moving ever closer to a breaking point. The careful approach may have brought as pretty far. But isn't working anymore. It hasn't worked since 2008 at least.

silverquiet 2y ago
> We can't defend ourselves, our economies are de-industrializing, we have right and left radical taking over political spectrum all the while our pension and healthcare systems are moving ever closer to a breaking point. Other than the defense part, the same could be said for the US.
- Workaccount2 2y ago
  The US has very rosy economic future projections compared to Europe, and frankly the rest of the world. Don't be fooled by sensational headlines and chronically online college kids complaining.
  - RGamma 2y ago
    The US as a statistic, perhaps. As a collection of people... not sure, they seem pretty angry already.
  - gota 2y ago
    Rosy in comparison to the rest of the world - maybe Rosy in comparison to 1976~2000 - no I'm under the impression it's been (sort of) proven (but I have no source) that the major reason for 'college kids complaining' is precisely because of the perceived loss in quality of life, purchasing power and access to {healtchare, safety, community, third spaces} when compared to prior generations
    - aesch 2y ago
      I'm glad you mentioned 'perceived' loss in quality of life. I think that is what is being argued, does the perception meet the reality? It could be that the major reason for 'college kids perception of loss in quality of life' is that the rise of ad-driven media, as opposed to the previous generation's subscription model, leads to more sensationalized news to drive clicks. Combine that with online forums (echo chambers) that make it easier to complain to a sympathetic audience. College kids are also more susceptible to recency bias, they didn't live through previous times of uncertainty and have no memories of cold wars or the turbulence that previous generations lived through.
      - djhn 2y ago
        To me it seems that even software engineers and bankers in US and UK, at least those who don’t have parental support, will struggle to ever attain the things that are achievable to moderately ambitious european kids from the lowest wealth and income deciles at 25-30 in a wide range of professions: 40 hour workweeks, comfortable middle class lifestyle, home ownership in appreciating, investment grade old real estate in historical city centres.
  - silverquiet 2y ago
    Do the future projections suggest that those gains will be shared equitably or lead to greater happiness and life outcomes for Americans?
    - Workaccount2 2y ago
      These are economic projections, not sociopolitical ones. The harvest looks very likely to increase all else being equal. How it is distributed and how the farm is managed in the future is another matter.
      - silverquiet 2y ago
        Ah yes, if we all work hard, then the bosses can buy another Ferrari next year.
  - archagon 2y ago
    A MAGA victory, now or in the future, can burn it all to the ground. The political situation is incredibly volatile.
aziaziazi 2y ago
Your concerns are legitimate but the dream of an ever growing production isn’t sustainable either. But that is ok: not being the most powerful within a group is totally fine.
pfannkuchen 2y ago
On the defense issue, I don’t really see where the threat would come from. Russia isn’t in such a great place militarily either. It would be incredibly culturally strange for China to invade that far away and I don’t know that their military is configured for that anyway. They may influence and sabotage but would never attack Europe militarily IMO. Middle East and North Africa states don’t pose much of a threat still in an actual military conflict. Who does that leave to defend against? America?
- 1N73RC3P70R 2y ago
  [flagged]
- carlosjobim 2y ago
  > Who does that leave to defend against? Maybe the criminal gangs, who already have capacity rivaling and sometimes surpassing European governments? Or maybe killing, gang raping, shooting, bombing and looting is not an actual military conflict, because the soldiers don't wear uniforms, and thus nothing for the busy Europeans to mind.
  - pfannkuchen 2y ago
    Those are big problems, but the issue is a lack of will, not a lack of military strength. If the will situation changed those threats could be gone within a week.
    - leadingthenet 2y ago
      We are getting old, are having few if any children, yet our social contract is built on a series of Ponzi schemes that become unmaintainable under such circumstances. The temporary band-aid fix of mass migration is seemingly bringing many old and proud nations to a boiling point. We like our regulations, we like our welfare state, we like our extensive holidays and work life balance, and we’re not willing to budge on any of them, really. There’s too many contradictions in the system now. I’m not sure what it would take for this “will” to materialise, but I’m afraid if it does happen, it’ll come about due to some form of neo-fascism than a glorious rejuvenation of our current political order. If the will doesn’t materialise, well, that’s exactly what civilisational collapse looks like in the historical record. Either way, I’m not really seeing the optimistic outlook for Europe.
chairmansteve 2y ago
Not sure that the US has worked since 2008 either. The streets are full of homeless. Half the population is angry enough (about what I'm not sure), that they are about to elect a self described dictator.

silverquiet 2y ago

> We can't defend ourselves, our economies are de-industrializing, we have right and left radical taking over political spectrum all the while our pension and healthcare systems are moving ever closer to a breaking point. Other than the defense part, the same could be said for the US.

Workaccount2 2y ago
The US has very rosy economic future projections compared to Europe, and frankly the rest of the world. Don't be fooled by sensational headlines and chronically online college kids complaining.
- RGamma 2y ago
  The US as a statistic, perhaps. As a collection of people... not sure, they seem pretty angry already.
- gota 2y ago
  Rosy in comparison to the rest of the world - maybe Rosy in comparison to 1976~2000 - no I'm under the impression it's been (sort of) proven (but I have no source) that the major reason for 'college kids complaining' is precisely because of the perceived loss in quality of life, purchasing power and access to {healtchare, safety, community, third spaces} when compared to prior generations
  - aesch 2y ago
    I'm glad you mentioned 'perceived' loss in quality of life. I think that is what is being argued, does the perception meet the reality? It could be that the major reason for 'college kids perception of loss in quality of life' is that the rise of ad-driven media, as opposed to the previous generation's subscription model, leads to more sensationalized news to drive clicks. Combine that with online forums (echo chambers) that make it easier to complain to a sympathetic audience. College kids are also more susceptible to recency bias, they didn't live through previous times of uncertainty and have no memories of cold wars or the turbulence that previous generations lived through.
    - djhn 2y ago
      To me it seems that even software engineers and bankers in US and UK, at least those who don’t have parental support, will struggle to ever attain the things that are achievable to moderately ambitious european kids from the lowest wealth and income deciles at 25-30 in a wide range of professions: 40 hour workweeks, comfortable middle class lifestyle, home ownership in appreciating, investment grade old real estate in historical city centres.
- silverquiet 2y ago
  Do the future projections suggest that those gains will be shared equitably or lead to greater happiness and life outcomes for Americans?
  - Workaccount2 2y ago
    These are economic projections, not sociopolitical ones. The harvest looks very likely to increase all else being equal. How it is distributed and how the farm is managed in the future is another matter.
    - silverquiet 2y ago
      Ah yes, if we all work hard, then the bosses can buy another Ferrari next year.
- archagon 2y ago
  A MAGA victory, now or in the future, can burn it all to the ground. The political situation is incredibly volatile.

aziaziazi 2y ago

Your concerns are legitimate but the dream of an ever growing production isn’t sustainable either. But that is ok: not being the most powerful within a group is totally fine.

pfannkuchen 2y ago

On the defense issue, I don’t really see where the threat would come from. Russia isn’t in such a great place militarily either. It would be incredibly culturally strange for China to invade that far away and I don’t know that their military is configured for that anyway. They may influence and sabotage but would never attack Europe militarily IMO. Middle East and North Africa states don’t pose much of a threat still in an actual military conflict. Who does that leave to defend against? America?

1N73RC3P70R 2y ago
[flagged]
carlosjobim 2y ago
> Who does that leave to defend against? Maybe the criminal gangs, who already have capacity rivaling and sometimes surpassing European governments? Or maybe killing, gang raping, shooting, bombing and looting is not an actual military conflict, because the soldiers don't wear uniforms, and thus nothing for the busy Europeans to mind.
- pfannkuchen 2y ago
  Those are big problems, but the issue is a lack of will, not a lack of military strength. If the will situation changed those threats could be gone within a week.
  - leadingthenet 2y ago
    We are getting old, are having few if any children, yet our social contract is built on a series of Ponzi schemes that become unmaintainable under such circumstances. The temporary band-aid fix of mass migration is seemingly bringing many old and proud nations to a boiling point. We like our regulations, we like our welfare state, we like our extensive holidays and work life balance, and we’re not willing to budge on any of them, really. There’s too many contradictions in the system now. I’m not sure what it would take for this “will” to materialise, but I’m afraid if it does happen, it’ll come about due to some form of neo-fascism than a glorious rejuvenation of our current political order. If the will doesn’t materialise, well, that’s exactly what civilisational collapse looks like in the historical record. Either way, I’m not really seeing the optimistic outlook for Europe.

chairmansteve 2y ago

Not sure that the US has worked since 2008 either. The streets are full of homeless. Half the population is angry enough (about what I'm not sure), that they are about to elect a self described dictator.