5 ms·

Something of note is that this is a 4nm fab, whereas 3nm is cutting edge. TSMC wants to keep the crown jewels at home.

monkmartinez 2y ago
How hard would it be to move to 3nm or 2nm in Arizona if something happened in Taiwan? Genuine question because I don't know much about these plants.
- AnotherGoodName 2y ago
  There’s a lot of supply chain involved. For example in the pellicle (a special plastic coating that helps smooth variations in the photoresist layer). https://www.businesskorea.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=71664 https://www.businesskorea.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=... It’s one of the reasons intel never got the yields tsmc were getting with the same asml machines. They didn’t have the same supply chain (in fact their insistence on liquid pellicles or no pellicle hurt them a lot). Here’s a thought though. Is the Arizona fab just importing the supply chain from Taiwan? If so it’s not really helping high end silicon independence as much as you’d hope.
  - sircastor 2y ago
    If enough usage picks up in this fab, the supply chain will build around it. The hard part (and TSMC has said this is an issue internally as well) is replicating the business in the US. The work ethic, job expectations, cultural taboos, etc are all different. If it turns out that TSMC can only do what they do where they do it because of a bunch of external factors, then no one is going to be putting their billion dollar business here. Especially if they can save a few million by doing it in Taiwan.
- dheera 2y ago
  Considering ASML makes the machines, probably not that difficult. The knowledge of how to do it exists outside of Taiwan. The bigger problem might be that a whole lot of the rest of the supply chain is in China, and if something happened in Taiwan, the US would fuck up US-China relations and wreck that supply chain.
  - pests 2y ago
    It's possible for TSMC to use the machines better and more efficiently than even ASLM could. Plus the step ASML covers is only a tiny slice of the entire chain of events to get to a finished product.
pityJuke 2y ago
Given that this exists as a sort of defence mechanism against Taiwan being invaded, this isn't so bad, is it? Being within striking distance of cutting edge is far better than being miles behind, at least to my mind.
- Workaccount2 2y ago
  It's not bad at all. The reason it is noteworthy is because it is not a competitor fab to intel's cutting edge domestic fabs. That is if intel can get their act together.
- riku_iki 2y ago
  that fab needs to be active and profitable to keel afloat for many years forward. Not being cutting edge can put it into scrutiny eventually.
- akfHanv 2y ago
  There are bigger U.S. interests like not giving the control over the South China Sea to China. TSMC is a minor issue and would probably be destroyed by either the U.S. or Taiwan itself in case of a successful invasion.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    > control over the South China Sea to China Why shouldn't China should control the South China Sea? And why do we care about a body of water on the other side of the planet?
    - SllX 2y ago
      South China Sea is just a name, not a cause for maritime irredentism, and that Sea also borders most countries in Southeast Asia, countries which consider themselves independent sovereign nations. So it’s international waters which an enormous amount of global trade flows through. Allowing the PRC to call it their sovereign territory is conceding that they have license to fuck with that trade at-will, since those ships which are currently going through international waters would instead be going through PRC jurisdiction.
Detrytus 2y ago
It's just self-preservation instinct: if they move they bleeding edge manufacturing to the US then the US no longer has a reason to defend Taiwan against Chinese invasion. Which sucks for all the TSMC C-level executives and their families.
- linotype 2y ago
  I have to imagine the C-level employees at TSMC have an exit strategy involving private planes if that were to come to pass. At least I hope they do.
  - riku_iki 2y ago
    probably possible to check where families live and kids go to college (US vs Taiwan)
  - duxup 2y ago
    I get the feeling that might not even be needed. There's a pattern of those in power thinking they'll be kept in power even in trying times, patterns where they're wrong, but also where they are right. China is hardly a fully closed society.
- canjobear 2y ago
  The Taiwan Strait is still pretty important.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- Jach 2y ago
  TSMC was founded in 1987, I think there might just be other reasons the US may defend Taiwan which would justify the existence of the older original mutual defense treaty from 1955-1980 or the currently standing Taiwan relations act that replaced it in 1980.
s_dev 2y ago
Where are all the 'nano meters' is just marketing guys the way GHz became back in the day that Intel ended up obsessing over. Are we using these values as proxies for performance now? It was true back in the day -- is it still true?
- kayson 2y ago
  It is a proxy for performance in a sense. I think it's either logic density or some arbitrary weighting of PPA. It's definitely not the same as it was when we were scaling actual gate lengths. Although it seems the foundries are now making the minimum drawn length close to or the same as the process designation. This was less so the case in the 5-7nm generation. I wonder if people were being stupid about it...

How hard would it be to move to 3nm or 2nm in Arizona if something happened in Taiwan? Genuine question because I don't know much about these plants.

AnotherGoodName 2y ago
There’s a lot of supply chain involved. For example in the pellicle (a special plastic coating that helps smooth variations in the photoresist layer). https://www.businesskorea.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=71664 https://www.businesskorea.co.kr/news/articleView.html?idxno=... It’s one of the reasons intel never got the yields tsmc were getting with the same asml machines. They didn’t have the same supply chain (in fact their insistence on liquid pellicles or no pellicle hurt them a lot). Here’s a thought though. Is the Arizona fab just importing the supply chain from Taiwan? If so it’s not really helping high end silicon independence as much as you’d hope.
- sircastor 2y ago
  If enough usage picks up in this fab, the supply chain will build around it. The hard part (and TSMC has said this is an issue internally as well) is replicating the business in the US. The work ethic, job expectations, cultural taboos, etc are all different. If it turns out that TSMC can only do what they do where they do it because of a bunch of external factors, then no one is going to be putting their billion dollar business here. Especially if they can save a few million by doing it in Taiwan.
dheera 2y ago
Considering ASML makes the machines, probably not that difficult. The knowledge of how to do it exists outside of Taiwan. The bigger problem might be that a whole lot of the rest of the supply chain is in China, and if something happened in Taiwan, the US would fuck up US-China relations and wreck that supply chain.
- pests 2y ago
  It's possible for TSMC to use the machines better and more efficiently than even ASLM could. Plus the step ASML covers is only a tiny slice of the entire chain of events to get to a finished product.

pityJuke 2y ago

Given that this exists as a sort of defence mechanism against Taiwan being invaded, this isn't so bad, is it? Being within striking distance of cutting edge is far better than being miles behind, at least to my mind.

Workaccount2 2y ago
It's not bad at all. The reason it is noteworthy is because it is not a competitor fab to intel's cutting edge domestic fabs. That is if intel can get their act together.
riku_iki 2y ago
that fab needs to be active and profitable to keel afloat for many years forward. Not being cutting edge can put it into scrutiny eventually.
akfHanv 2y ago
There are bigger U.S. interests like not giving the control over the South China Sea to China. TSMC is a minor issue and would probably be destroyed by either the U.S. or Taiwan itself in case of a successful invasion.
- rayiner 2y ago
  > control over the South China Sea to China Why shouldn't China should control the South China Sea? And why do we care about a body of water on the other side of the planet?
  - SllX 2y ago
    South China Sea is just a name, not a cause for maritime irredentism, and that Sea also borders most countries in Southeast Asia, countries which consider themselves independent sovereign nations. So it’s international waters which an enormous amount of global trade flows through. Allowing the PRC to call it their sovereign territory is conceding that they have license to fuck with that trade at-will, since those ships which are currently going through international waters would instead be going through PRC jurisdiction.

Detrytus 2y ago

It's just self-preservation instinct: if they move they bleeding edge manufacturing to the US then the US no longer has a reason to defend Taiwan against Chinese invasion. Which sucks for all the TSMC C-level executives and their families.

linotype 2y ago
I have to imagine the C-level employees at TSMC have an exit strategy involving private planes if that were to come to pass. At least I hope they do.
- riku_iki 2y ago
  probably possible to check where families live and kids go to college (US vs Taiwan)
- duxup 2y ago
  I get the feeling that might not even be needed. There's a pattern of those in power thinking they'll be kept in power even in trying times, patterns where they're wrong, but also where they are right. China is hardly a fully closed society.
canjobear 2y ago
The Taiwan Strait is still pretty important.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Jach 2y ago
TSMC was founded in 1987, I think there might just be other reasons the US may defend Taiwan which would justify the existence of the older original mutual defense treaty from 1955-1980 or the currently standing Taiwan relations act that replaced it in 1980.

s_dev 2y ago

Where are all the 'nano meters' is just marketing guys the way GHz became back in the day that Intel ended up obsessing over. Are we using these values as proxies for performance now? It was true back in the day -- is it still true?

kayson 2y ago
It is a proxy for performance in a sense. I think it's either logic density or some arbitrary weighting of PPA. It's definitely not the same as it was when we were scaling actual gate lengths. Although it seems the foundries are now making the minimum drawn length close to or the same as the process designation. This was less so the case in the 5-7nm generation. I wonder if people were being stupid about it...