4 ms·

There's a difference between people working to survive fighting for every dollar versus the CEOs who make millions because they can pump the stock price by sque

by prh8 2y ago

There's a difference between people working to survive fighting for every dollar versus the CEOs who make millions because they can pump the stock price by squeezing every penny out of consumers.

_heimdall 2y ago
How do you prevent that without throwing away all semblance of free markets? I also would rather not see CEOs making such massive paychecks, but if that's what the market is willing to pay them I don't see a clear way to stop it.
- vundercind 2y ago
  Better markets. Which, among other things, means returning to aggressive antitrust enforcement that we haven’t seen in decades.
- prh8 2y ago
  We do not have true free market in the US. When all grocery stores jack up prices, what choice do people have? Eat cereal for every meal (an actual CEO quote).
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    > We do not have true free market in the US Totally agree there. To me that's a problem, but I know for many they see that as a good thing. > When all grocery stores jack up prices, what choice do people have? A rather surprising fact about food, it doesn't just come from grocery stores. Farmers markets, gardening, hunting, raising chickens, etc are absolutely options. Almost all of human history was devoid of grocery stores entirely. Local markets are a different story, but then you are often dealing with people from your community and not massive corporations that don't know who you are and only care about profit.
    - prh8 2y ago
      In totality, we have choices. But that does not account for individual circumstances, and ignores the way that work life in the US has shaped people's lives. Not everyone has the luxury of being able to raise chickens, hunt for food, spend their time and money at farmer's markets, etc. Capitalism in America is very much designed to keep people from having time or money or ability to actually change their circumstances.
      - _heimdall 2y ago
        What you're describing is effectively a form of slavery. I very much agree with how you describe our system. Though I would see that as the fundamental problem to fix, something like grocery stores acting like greedy corporations is a tiny, distracting problem when its part of a system that has hints of slavery.
    - relaxing 2y ago
      > Farmers markets, gardening, hunting, raising chickens, etc are absolutely options. You’ve never seriously tried those things. Farmers market prices? Get out. Gardening? The time investment to keep a garden large enough to make a significant dent in one’s grocery bill is prohibitive. Have fun having your life revolve around raising livestock. Hunting, maybe if you live near public game lands, have the tools and desire to butcher your own meat. In all cases the economies of scale in industrial farming trumps local operations.
      - _heimdall 2y ago
        We may just live in very different places. When I lived in Seattle farmers market prices were crazy. Living in a different part of the country and in a part of town closer to farmers, our prices are much better. We also use a local CSA, $20 per week for a decent amount of whatever is in season. I also have a pretty large garden, we don't spend all that much time on it. We don't plant as intensively as most people think about. We don't till and keep the dirt bare, its more of a food forest at this point but we do still plant annual produce in rows in some areas. We spend maybe 3 hours per week total in the garden during the summer. Raising livestock doesn't mean your life has to revolve around them, its all up to how you choose to raise them and what you raise. > In all cases the economies of scale in industrial farming trumps local operations. Have you ever been to an industrial farm, feed lot, chicken house, or slaughterhouse? If not I'd hold judgement on the value of that scale until you see how the animals are actually raised and treated. I'd extend that to crop fields as well, though its harder to empathize with what a plant when they're so different from us.
- michaelmrose 2y ago
  You can literally set the tax rate at 100% over 10M and wealth tax at 100% over 1 billion. There is no position that you can't fill for 10M. You can find people to run entire nations as well as brain surgeons and rocket scientists for less.
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    People wouldn't bother making more than $10M if the tax jumped to 100%. You could take every dollar from the most obscenely rich in the US and you could only afford to find the US government for 6 months. We simply spend too much to fix it by taxing the rich to death.
    - michaelmrose 2y ago
      Basically they would do the value creating activities of worth because even the most worthy and valuable value creating activities now cost less than 10M. The exchanges of value over 10M to an individuals can most apply be characterized as the individual looting society for their profit.

by prh8 2y ago

There's a difference between people working to survive fighting for every dollar versus the CEOs who make millions because they can pump the stock price by squeezing every penny out of consumers.

_heimdall 2y ago

How do you prevent that without throwing away all semblance of free markets? I also would rather not see CEOs making such massive paychecks, but if that's what the market is willing to pay them I don't see a clear way to stop it.

vundercind 2y ago
Better markets. Which, among other things, means returning to aggressive antitrust enforcement that we haven’t seen in decades.
prh8 2y ago
We do not have true free market in the US. When all grocery stores jack up prices, what choice do people have? Eat cereal for every meal (an actual CEO quote).
- _heimdall 2y ago
  > We do not have true free market in the US Totally agree there. To me that's a problem, but I know for many they see that as a good thing. > When all grocery stores jack up prices, what choice do people have? A rather surprising fact about food, it doesn't just come from grocery stores. Farmers markets, gardening, hunting, raising chickens, etc are absolutely options. Almost all of human history was devoid of grocery stores entirely. Local markets are a different story, but then you are often dealing with people from your community and not massive corporations that don't know who you are and only care about profit.
  - prh8 2y ago
    In totality, we have choices. But that does not account for individual circumstances, and ignores the way that work life in the US has shaped people's lives. Not everyone has the luxury of being able to raise chickens, hunt for food, spend their time and money at farmer's markets, etc. Capitalism in America is very much designed to keep people from having time or money or ability to actually change their circumstances.
    - _heimdall 2y ago
      What you're describing is effectively a form of slavery. I very much agree with how you describe our system. Though I would see that as the fundamental problem to fix, something like grocery stores acting like greedy corporations is a tiny, distracting problem when its part of a system that has hints of slavery.
  - relaxing 2y ago
    > Farmers markets, gardening, hunting, raising chickens, etc are absolutely options. You’ve never seriously tried those things. Farmers market prices? Get out. Gardening? The time investment to keep a garden large enough to make a significant dent in one’s grocery bill is prohibitive. Have fun having your life revolve around raising livestock. Hunting, maybe if you live near public game lands, have the tools and desire to butcher your own meat. In all cases the economies of scale in industrial farming trumps local operations.
    - _heimdall 2y ago
      We may just live in very different places. When I lived in Seattle farmers market prices were crazy. Living in a different part of the country and in a part of town closer to farmers, our prices are much better. We also use a local CSA, $20 per week for a decent amount of whatever is in season. I also have a pretty large garden, we don't spend all that much time on it. We don't plant as intensively as most people think about. We don't till and keep the dirt bare, its more of a food forest at this point but we do still plant annual produce in rows in some areas. We spend maybe 3 hours per week total in the garden during the summer. Raising livestock doesn't mean your life has to revolve around them, its all up to how you choose to raise them and what you raise. > In all cases the economies of scale in industrial farming trumps local operations. Have you ever been to an industrial farm, feed lot, chicken house, or slaughterhouse? If not I'd hold judgement on the value of that scale until you see how the animals are actually raised and treated. I'd extend that to crop fields as well, though its harder to empathize with what a plant when they're so different from us.
michaelmrose 2y ago
You can literally set the tax rate at 100% over 10M and wealth tax at 100% over 1 billion. There is no position that you can't fill for 10M. You can find people to run entire nations as well as brain surgeons and rocket scientists for less.
- _heimdall 2y ago
  People wouldn't bother making more than $10M if the tax jumped to 100%. You could take every dollar from the most obscenely rich in the US and you could only afford to find the US government for 6 months. We simply spend too much to fix it by taxing the rich to death.
  - michaelmrose 2y ago
    Basically they would do the value creating activities of worth because even the most worthy and valuable value creating activities now cost less than 10M. The exchanges of value over 10M to an individuals can most apply be characterized as the individual looting society for their profit.