5 ms·

> In 2022, CEOs were paid 344 times as much as a typical worker in contrast to 1965 when they were paid 21 times as much as a typical worker. https://www.epi.o

by ath3nd 2y ago

> In 2022, CEOs were paid 344 times as much as a typical worker in contrast to 1965 when they were paid 21 times as much as a typical worker. https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-pay-in-2022/ https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-pay-in-2022/ I thought the almighty "invisible hand of the market" would fix this? Or maybe all those theories for trickle down economics and how capitalism helps everyone are absolute bs intended to keep people docile while they are getting exploited? Let's remove some more regulation and let's bail out some more 2-big-2-fail company, that oughta fix things /s In all fairness, it's hard to act surprised at news like this. This is the system working exactly as intended. I don't think tweaking it here and there will change things much, only a fundamental change of how we see work, government and society can enact the change we need.

robertlagrant 2y ago
> I thought the almighty "invisible hand of the market" would fix this? Why did you think that?
- harimau777 2y ago
  That's the argument given to justify hyper-capitalist policies. The money will trickle down and everyone will be better off. We are now seeing that the money often does not trickle down enough to maintain the lifestyle of previous generations and the inequality has negative effects on society (e.g. a two tier justice system, campaign finance issues, regular people being unable to compete for housing, etc.).
  - lurking15 2y ago
    > the money will trickle down and everyone will be better off that's off-base and superficial understanding of "trickle-down" economics, the idea is that the general well-being of society is based in its ability to create wealth which has a very general definition, the ability to create things that people need & therefore value and yes by pretty much any metric capitalism has raised absolutely enormous amounts of people out of crushing poverty, there's no dispute there based on the numbers housing is unaffordable due to government intervention, plain and simple, since government debased the money housing became a store of wealth
    - ath3nd 2y ago
      > housing is unaffordable due to government intervention, plain and simple, since government debased the money housing became a store of wealth Actually, big amount of people think it's due to collusion of the big real estate firms + using pricing software + monopolization of the housing market by a handful of firms. https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/aug/23/doj-realpage-lawsuit https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/aug/23/doj... Luckily, the government (DoJ) will intervene and hopefully will break down the monopolies and sue them, which, plain and simple, are the reason for the housing crisis.
      - robertlagrant 2y ago
        > which, plain and simple, are the reason for the housing crisis It's plain and simple, but not necessarily true. There are multiple factors. We build housing at a far, far lower rate than we import people, never mind organic population growth. That alone doesn't require any conspiracy theories to explain the reason housing is more expensive and subdivided into smaller units: demand is massively outstripping supply, and it's not a luxury. People just have to pay more for it.
      - lurking15 2y ago
        > plain and simple, are the reason for the housing crisis we have decades of evidence that policy artificially raised housing prices into unaffordability, and of course everything else worth having that's also been involved with heavy government regulation has risen beyond the reach of lower and middle classes: health care, education, food. the obvious answer is that money has been debased which means that EVERY that's purchased with money will be harder to afford.
    - harimau777 2y ago
      Capitalism certainly was an improvement over the previous system of feudalism; even socialists and communists acknowledge that. However, it's less clear that our current system (what people often call "corporate capitalism" or "late stage capitalism") is superior to other systems such as the "welfare capitalism"/"social democracy" seen in many European countries or the highly unionized capitalism America had in previous decades.
  - atmavatar 2y ago
    What trickles down isn't green.
- ath3nd 2y ago
  > Why did you think that? If you were to believe current establishment economists, the invisible hand of the market fixes everything, from workers salaries, to societal problems like healthcare, public transport, and education. If it doesn't, then it's probably too much involvement by the evil government. Like, when in 2008, the evil government bailed the good banks, using taxpayer money, showing that in capitalism, the most important members of society: the banks and wall street, are totally safe. /s In reality, I think the "invisible hand of the market" is a bs metaphor serving as an excuse to neocapitalists to pillage our world without regulation. I'd personally love to see a progressive wealth tax on the 1% (85% on gains > 1million seems reasonable to me), and de-privatization of social services like healthcare, education and transport. Imo our societies must aim towards the "Private Sufficiency, Public Luxury" model: https://commongood.cc/reader/private-sufficiency-public-luxury/ https://commongood.cc/reader/private-sufficiency-public-luxu... and articles like that showing discrepancy between CEO and worker pay, show me I am on the right track.
  - robertlagrant 2y ago
    > If you were to believe current establishment economists, the invisible hand of the market fixes everything This is far too simplistic. No one thinks it fixes everything. They might say that "CEO salaries aren't broken; you're just engaging in the politics of envy". But they would never claim that it would do things to reduce said "envy".

by ath3nd 2y ago

robertlagrant 2y ago

> I thought the almighty "invisible hand of the market" would fix this? Why did you think that?

harimau777 2y ago
That's the argument given to justify hyper-capitalist policies. The money will trickle down and everyone will be better off. We are now seeing that the money often does not trickle down enough to maintain the lifestyle of previous generations and the inequality has negative effects on society (e.g. a two tier justice system, campaign finance issues, regular people being unable to compete for housing, etc.).
- lurking15 2y ago
  > the money will trickle down and everyone will be better off that's off-base and superficial understanding of "trickle-down" economics, the idea is that the general well-being of society is based in its ability to create wealth which has a very general definition, the ability to create things that people need & therefore value and yes by pretty much any metric capitalism has raised absolutely enormous amounts of people out of crushing poverty, there's no dispute there based on the numbers housing is unaffordable due to government intervention, plain and simple, since government debased the money housing became a store of wealth
  - ath3nd 2y ago
    > housing is unaffordable due to government intervention, plain and simple, since government debased the money housing became a store of wealth Actually, big amount of people think it's due to collusion of the big real estate firms + using pricing software + monopolization of the housing market by a handful of firms. https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/aug/23/doj-realpage-lawsuit https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/aug/23/doj... Luckily, the government (DoJ) will intervene and hopefully will break down the monopolies and sue them, which, plain and simple, are the reason for the housing crisis.
    - robertlagrant 2y ago
      > which, plain and simple, are the reason for the housing crisis It's plain and simple, but not necessarily true. There are multiple factors. We build housing at a far, far lower rate than we import people, never mind organic population growth. That alone doesn't require any conspiracy theories to explain the reason housing is more expensive and subdivided into smaller units: demand is massively outstripping supply, and it's not a luxury. People just have to pay more for it.
    - lurking15 2y ago
      > plain and simple, are the reason for the housing crisis we have decades of evidence that policy artificially raised housing prices into unaffordability, and of course everything else worth having that's also been involved with heavy government regulation has risen beyond the reach of lower and middle classes: health care, education, food. the obvious answer is that money has been debased which means that EVERY that's purchased with money will be harder to afford.
  - harimau777 2y ago
    Capitalism certainly was an improvement over the previous system of feudalism; even socialists and communists acknowledge that. However, it's less clear that our current system (what people often call "corporate capitalism" or "late stage capitalism") is superior to other systems such as the "welfare capitalism"/"social democracy" seen in many European countries or the highly unionized capitalism America had in previous decades.
- atmavatar 2y ago
  What trickles down isn't green.
ath3nd 2y ago
> Why did you think that? If you were to believe current establishment economists, the invisible hand of the market fixes everything, from workers salaries, to societal problems like healthcare, public transport, and education. If it doesn't, then it's probably too much involvement by the evil government. Like, when in 2008, the evil government bailed the good banks, using taxpayer money, showing that in capitalism, the most important members of society: the banks and wall street, are totally safe. /s In reality, I think the "invisible hand of the market" is a bs metaphor serving as an excuse to neocapitalists to pillage our world without regulation. I'd personally love to see a progressive wealth tax on the 1% (85% on gains > 1million seems reasonable to me), and de-privatization of social services like healthcare, education and transport. Imo our societies must aim towards the "Private Sufficiency, Public Luxury" model: https://commongood.cc/reader/private-sufficiency-public-luxury/ https://commongood.cc/reader/private-sufficiency-public-luxu... and articles like that showing discrepancy between CEO and worker pay, show me I am on the right track.
- robertlagrant 2y ago
  > If you were to believe current establishment economists, the invisible hand of the market fixes everything This is far too simplistic. No one thinks it fixes everything. They might say that "CEO salaries aren't broken; you're just engaging in the politics of envy". But they would never claim that it would do things to reduce said "envy".