5 ms·

Random question to anyone who might know anything about this – is the uarch internally POWER, like System i (AS/400)?

rbanffy 2y ago
No. It's completely different. Unlike System i, it's also fully documented (in the rather impenetrable "Principles of Operation" red book).
- nxobject 2y ago
  Ah, thank you! I would have never thought to search under that name. It makes sense for such a non-mainstream architecture, but I wish there were (even reverse-engineered) resources as well on "this is what the execution engine looks like". There are instructions there that clearly scream "very extensive microcoding is going on here", e.g. vintage EBCDIC/BCD conversion, string/stream instructions, control channel supervision, etc.
  - ruslan 2y ago
    It seems to me the mentioned "Principles of Operation" document describes a virtal machine compatible with good old System/370 what's now known as IBM z/Architecture. But the Telum CPU itself runs on Power10 cores or alike RISCs.
    - rbanffy 2y ago
      No. The cores are not POWER10 at all. While there is a ton of microcode and interception magic happening (and nothing but the hypervisor, PR/SM IIRC, runs on metal - the hypervisor exposes partitions to the zVM environment) the cores are still very different from POWER and run their own s390x ISA. You might be confusing it with the AS/400 CISC ISA, which exists as an emulation layer on top of POWER, since all IBMi machines are almost identical to their POWER counterparts.
      - sillywalk 2y ago
        There isn't an emulation layer for AS/400 though, it's native POWER code. The AS/400 / 'i' are descendants of the System/38 and implement a "Technology Independent Machine Interface". Applications target this high-level interface, rather than the underlying hardware. Before first run (or when they're installed?) applications get compiled from abstract Machine Interface code to native code.
Pet_Ant 2y ago
So looked into this in Wikipedia and it seems like it is "z/Architecture" which is basically a 64-bit extension of the s/390 instruction set which was the evolution of the s/360 which was in a sense the first instruction set (it was the first instruction set intended to be implemented by multiple CPUs). It looks like software for the s/360 should still be able to run unchanged on the modern CPUs but there was some mention that not operating systems.

No. It's completely different. Unlike System i, it's also fully documented (in the rather impenetrable "Principles of Operation" red book).

nxobject 2y ago
Ah, thank you! I would have never thought to search under that name. It makes sense for such a non-mainstream architecture, but I wish there were (even reverse-engineered) resources as well on "this is what the execution engine looks like". There are instructions there that clearly scream "very extensive microcoding is going on here", e.g. vintage EBCDIC/BCD conversion, string/stream instructions, control channel supervision, etc.
- ruslan 2y ago
  It seems to me the mentioned "Principles of Operation" document describes a virtal machine compatible with good old System/370 what's now known as IBM z/Architecture. But the Telum CPU itself runs on Power10 cores or alike RISCs.
  - rbanffy 2y ago
    No. The cores are not POWER10 at all. While there is a ton of microcode and interception magic happening (and nothing but the hypervisor, PR/SM IIRC, runs on metal - the hypervisor exposes partitions to the zVM environment) the cores are still very different from POWER and run their own s390x ISA. You might be confusing it with the AS/400 CISC ISA, which exists as an emulation layer on top of POWER, since all IBMi machines are almost identical to their POWER counterparts.
    - sillywalk 2y ago
      There isn't an emulation layer for AS/400 though, it's native POWER code. The AS/400 / 'i' are descendants of the System/38 and implement a "Technology Independent Machine Interface". Applications target this high-level interface, rather than the underlying hardware. Before first run (or when they're installed?) applications get compiled from abstract Machine Interface code to native code.

Pet_Ant 2y ago

So looked into this in Wikipedia and it seems like it is "z/Architecture" which is basically a 64-bit extension of the s/390 instruction set which was the evolution of the s/360 which was in a sense the first instruction set (it was the first instruction set intended to be implemented by multiple CPUs). It looks like software for the s/360 should still be able to run unchanged on the modern CPUs but there was some mention that not operating systems.