8 ms·

All these weird comments about alcohol abstinence...must be a religious fundamentalist, must be an ex-alcoholic, etc. I have a drink maybe 5-10 times per year,

All these weird comments about alcohol abstinence...must be a religious fundamentalist, must be an ex-alcoholic, etc. I have a drink maybe 5-10 times per year, and I'm not actively trying to abstain. It tastes gross, and I'm not drawn to it. Why is it so hard for some people to understand that alcohol isn't appealing to everyone?

bell-cot 2y ago
> Why is it so hard...? Stupid (cognitively easy) stereotypes, backed by "everybody's gotta drink!" machismo/insecurity/conformist culture, backed by "all the people I know" (who aren't silenced by stereotypes and peer pressure) experience, backed by decade after decade of massive advertising by the alcohol industry (and adjacent industries).
piker 2y ago
We're just hypothesizing why at the population level abstinence from alcohol might not actually cause cognitive decline as (somewhat) implied by the data. Don't take it personally.
- ziggyzecat 2y ago
  You mean why abstinence isn't causing better cognitive performance, right, RIGHT? Obviously the study result is BS. Because if the the same people, drinkers with higher than their abstinent peers cognitive scores, didn't drink, their performance would be THE SAME. But it's impossible to find out. They should totally continue to study all that, tho. Maybe at some point in the future we can cut people open alive and look properly inside, fuck around & find out, and then close them up and send them back to work again.
  - ziggyzecat 2y ago
    > Obviously the study result is BS. Because if the the same people, drinkers with higher than their abstinent peers cognitive scores, didn't drink, their performance would be THE SAME. That liquor consumption part of the study result.
ziggyzecat 2y ago
I assume because technical people would think something like: - there are tens of thousand drinks on the planet, - all with their different nuances in how they alter mood and thinking patterns. Not appealing just can't be true except if you 'score' low in novelty seeking/curiosity ... except if you were only exposed to bad drunks and pathetic alcoholics ... Something like that. But it might also be because marketers see people like you as a challenge, a trophy to collect, and the non-marketing types just want to 'seduce' you. They do the same to babies and minors all the time. "Say this or that, do this or that." And BAM, some brain cells practically useless forever.
- foobiekr 2y ago
  "all with their different nuances in how they alter mood and thinking patterns" This is honestly not true unless you are including absinthe. Ethanol is the only active ingredient and it has one of the most well understood dose-response curves and one of the most heavily studied effects. The rest is all in your head. There just isn't that much to the alcohol, it's very one note, moreso than any psychedelic, moreso than even smoking (where dose control significantly varies the effects) or even cannabis which is also relatively one note.
  - sieste 2y ago
    Hops in beer have a mildly sedative effect. Sugar, caffeine, taurin in mix drinks cause more alertness and euphoria. There really is more to drinks than just the amount of ethanol.
  - nomdep 2y ago
    There is a genetic component on how you react to alcohol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_flush_reaction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_flush_reaction
  - ziggyzecat 2y ago
    > This is honestly not true unless I am quite certain that if you talked to a variety of people who like to drink, they will tell you that tequila hits different than a single barrel rye whiskey or champagne, for example. And it's more than just the amount of sugar. There are amounts of hints of various aromas in different liquor and these small differences do quite a bit in the brain, which you did propose yourself when you said > The rest is all in your head. Brains are incredible. The "sensitivity and specificity" of receptors goes way beyond what we understand for now, both hardware and software-wise, and that is true on the level of synapses as well as within any metabolism anywhere in their chains in the body and in how they work together to achieve their own objectives, as well as the ones they share. Take any approach within the range of broken - buggy - normal - amplified and apply it to any sphere of single and networked mechanism. Wear and tear and age change all this even further and never forget that we are still evolving, over very long time spans in very small changes. It's an insane ride from bio-chemistry to character in different states of mind and body/brain and that ride morphs quite a bit based on anything we consume via active and passive channels. And that's just part of the story as it evolves in my head.
TeMPOraL 2y ago
> [I] must be a religious fundamentalist, must be an ex-alcoholic, etc. Personally, no. Statistically, yes, at least enough for the difference to affect a study like this. That's the point of those comments.
theclansman 2y ago
I've always found weird how people draw conclusions from small correlations, specially when other studies show the opposite result. They call it hypothesis, but weirdly enough these conclusions often coincide with their world view. Look at that, now I'm the one drawing conclusions, must be human nature to try to make sense of things. But what I've found is that often reality is counter intuitive, and that's more fun.
mattgreenrocks 2y ago
I’m in my early 40s. My ability to metabolize alcohol took a steep nosedive a few years ago. I love a great marg/old fashioned/IPA, but I will feel depressed the next day no matter what. I’ve tried electrolyte supplementation, eating a lot, eating “right,” drinking a lot of water, etc. My body has a hard time with it. So it’s rare that I seek it out. A small container of sake early in the evening might be my indulgence from now on.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- mactavish88 2y ago
  I’m about to hit 40, and I’ve had this exact same experience. Even a single beer, shot of whiskey or glass of wine will leave me feeling depressed for at least a day afterwards. For me it seems to correlate with having had COVID back in 2021, where prior to that I could still have 2-3 drinks and feel okay the next day. My suspicion/intuition is that it has something to do with a shift in my gut microbiome - from what I understand, alcohol can very easily disrupt one’s microbiome, and the state of my microbiome seems to have a significant influence on my mood. I haven’t missed the alcohol though. It’s actually been a blessing for my general health and wellbeing.
  - grecy 2y ago
    Precisely the same experience here. Since Covid even a single drink makes me feel bad enough to not want to again… and I always had bad hangovers. This is different
  - francisofascii 2y ago
    I had a similar experience. For years I drank about 2 beers a night. Then in my early 40s, had a bout of "long covid" that lasted about 6 months. I have fully recovered, but can't drink like I used to. If I have one or two beers, I feel crappy and down the next day. Also the buzz isn't quite the same.
  - mattgreenrocks 2y ago
Insanity 2y ago
I feel like nowadays it is more socially acceptable to say you don’t drink than even just 10 years ago. I can’t recall the last time I was asked “why” after telling someone I don’t drink. All in all, I was fortunate that during university a close friend of mine also didn’t drink. Being the “odd one out” seems harder than being the “odd pair out” lol. edit: culture plays a role as well in how acceptable it is. I’m from a country that is heavy on alcohol usage though (Belgium).
- kenjackson 2y ago
  In the US it’s far more acceptable. I don’t drink and while I’ve been offered, no one ever pushes back. And I’ve never had problems being the only one at parties who didn’t.
  - bradlys 2y ago
    This is YMMV. I still get a lot of “why don’t you drink?!! Come on, man!!” in the US. Especially in a city like NYC - you’re signing up to be a bit of a social outcast.
    - siamese_puff 2y ago
      I disassociate from allowing people like this into my life now.
      - moralestapia 2y ago
        Good for you. However, in society at large, social influence (excuse the bit of circularity) is an extremely powerful force driving people's lifestyle.
foobiekr 2y ago
A lot of people confuse the secondary effects of alcohol (basically, mostly, social permission) with the primary effects. Most developed countries have purged almost all ritual from their cultures, which means that there aren't really occasions for people to experiment with their behavior - and it provides air cover for engaging in riskier behaviors - and so alcohol provides the outlet for them. Alcohol is one of the most boring psychoactive experiences there is, it's the safest, the most predictable and the most repeatable. There's nothing challenging about it - happy drunks are going to be happy drunks, angry/emotional drunks are going to be angry/emotional drunks, people who use the context of alcohol to excuse behaviors that they feel they would otherwise be judged for (promiscuity, "I love you guys! no I really do!", etc. etc.) are doing just that. The only drug with more predictability than alcohol is caffeine, with the common opiates being next in line for being absolutely predictable - do X get Y. Alcohol is boring. Even pot or tobacco are more interesting, but they lack the social context that provides behavioral permissibility which is really what drives the ritual-lite use - going drinking on the weekend.
- taeric 2y ago
  So, I could get behind a lot of the idea you are pushing here. But, I question whether you have evidence to back it up? For one, to claim that most developed countries have purged ritual feels more like you are referring to some specific rituals. Or have amusing cuts on what you consider developed countries. You also sort of undercut yourself by noting that alcohol hits people in different, if repeatable ways; but you seem to think that will not be true for other drugs? From my experience, I would expect the same for pot. Tobacco, I confess I never really saw it impact anyone. Outside of getting them addicted. Simply stated, why do you think you would not see such variability of how other items impact people?
  - coldtea 2y ago
    >For one, to claim that most developed countries have purged ritual feels more like you are referring to some specific rituals. They most likely mean all kinds of overt rituals societies used to have and some non-western societies still have. What kind of rituals do we have that you have in mind that we still have, and that are not either very peripheral to everyday life or have not been diminishing in importance and attendance year by year?
colechristensen 2y ago
>Why is it so hard for some people to understand that alcohol isn't appealing to everyone? People often don't understand that not everyone experiences a thing the same way. That what it's like for you isn't the same as what it's like for me. People think you experience alcoholic beverages exactly the same as they do and don't understand why you dislike them as a result.
bityard 2y ago
You are fortunate. There are many alcoholics who would trade anything to switch places with you. Probably a lot of the responses are from people who have seen how destructive alcohol can be when used in excess. I grew up in a blue-collar rural area where alcoholism wasn't just common, it was flat-out normal. Anyone who could get away with nursing a beer or 12 the whole day long and not get fired, usually did. My dad drank a lot and it caused a ton of problems with his marriage (leading to divorce) but at least he wasn't abusive. I am also somewhat lucky in that I never could acquire a taste for beer. Based on my family history and upbringing, I could have very easily slid into alcoholism otherwise. I'll never know for sure, but to keep even the possibility at bay, I have two hard rules: no drinking during the day and no drinking the night before work or having to be somewhere the next day.
coldtea 2y ago
>Why is it so hard for some people to understand that alcohol isn't appealing to everyone? Because it does appear to appeal to 90% of the population

bell-cot 2y ago

> Why is it so hard...? Stupid (cognitively easy) stereotypes, backed by "everybody's gotta drink!" machismo/insecurity/conformist culture, backed by "all the people I know" (who aren't silenced by stereotypes and peer pressure) experience, backed by decade after decade of massive advertising by the alcohol industry (and adjacent industries).

piker 2y ago

We're just hypothesizing why at the population level abstinence from alcohol might not actually cause cognitive decline as (somewhat) implied by the data. Don't take it personally.

ziggyzecat 2y ago
You mean why abstinence isn't causing better cognitive performance, right, RIGHT? Obviously the study result is BS. Because if the the same people, drinkers with higher than their abstinent peers cognitive scores, didn't drink, their performance would be THE SAME. But it's impossible to find out. They should totally continue to study all that, tho. Maybe at some point in the future we can cut people open alive and look properly inside, fuck around & find out, and then close them up and send them back to work again.
- ziggyzecat 2y ago
  > Obviously the study result is BS. Because if the the same people, drinkers with higher than their abstinent peers cognitive scores, didn't drink, their performance would be THE SAME. That liquor consumption part of the study result.

ziggyzecat 2y ago

I assume because technical people would think something like: - there are tens of thousand drinks on the planet, - all with their different nuances in how they alter mood and thinking patterns. Not appealing just can't be true except if you 'score' low in novelty seeking/curiosity ... except if you were only exposed to bad drunks and pathetic alcoholics ... Something like that. But it might also be because marketers see people like you as a challenge, a trophy to collect, and the non-marketing types just want to 'seduce' you. They do the same to babies and minors all the time. "Say this or that, do this or that." And BAM, some brain cells practically useless forever.

foobiekr 2y ago
"all with their different nuances in how they alter mood and thinking patterns" This is honestly not true unless you are including absinthe. Ethanol is the only active ingredient and it has one of the most well understood dose-response curves and one of the most heavily studied effects. The rest is all in your head. There just isn't that much to the alcohol, it's very one note, moreso than any psychedelic, moreso than even smoking (where dose control significantly varies the effects) or even cannabis which is also relatively one note.
- sieste 2y ago
  Hops in beer have a mildly sedative effect. Sugar, caffeine, taurin in mix drinks cause more alertness and euphoria. There really is more to drinks than just the amount of ethanol.
- nomdep 2y ago
  There is a genetic component on how you react to alcohol: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_flush_reaction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_flush_reaction
- ziggyzecat 2y ago
  > This is honestly not true unless I am quite certain that if you talked to a variety of people who like to drink, they will tell you that tequila hits different than a single barrel rye whiskey or champagne, for example. And it's more than just the amount of sugar. There are amounts of hints of various aromas in different liquor and these small differences do quite a bit in the brain, which you did propose yourself when you said > The rest is all in your head. Brains are incredible. The "sensitivity and specificity" of receptors goes way beyond what we understand for now, both hardware and software-wise, and that is true on the level of synapses as well as within any metabolism anywhere in their chains in the body and in how they work together to achieve their own objectives, as well as the ones they share. Take any approach within the range of broken - buggy - normal - amplified and apply it to any sphere of single and networked mechanism. Wear and tear and age change all this even further and never forget that we are still evolving, over very long time spans in very small changes. It's an insane ride from bio-chemistry to character in different states of mind and body/brain and that ride morphs quite a bit based on anything we consume via active and passive channels. And that's just part of the story as it evolves in my head.

TeMPOraL 2y ago

> [I] must be a religious fundamentalist, must be an ex-alcoholic, etc. Personally, no. Statistically, yes, at least enough for the difference to affect a study like this. That's the point of those comments.

theclansman 2y ago

I've always found weird how people draw conclusions from small correlations, specially when other studies show the opposite result. They call it hypothesis, but weirdly enough these conclusions often coincide with their world view. Look at that, now I'm the one drawing conclusions, must be human nature to try to make sense of things. But what I've found is that often reality is counter intuitive, and that's more fun.

mattgreenrocks 2y ago

I’m in my early 40s. My ability to metabolize alcohol took a steep nosedive a few years ago. I love a great marg/old fashioned/IPA, but I will feel depressed the next day no matter what. I’ve tried electrolyte supplementation, eating a lot, eating “right,” drinking a lot of water, etc. My body has a hard time with it. So it’s rare that I seek it out. A small container of sake early in the evening might be my indulgence from now on.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
mactavish88 2y ago
I’m about to hit 40, and I’ve had this exact same experience. Even a single beer, shot of whiskey or glass of wine will leave me feeling depressed for at least a day afterwards. For me it seems to correlate with having had COVID back in 2021, where prior to that I could still have 2-3 drinks and feel okay the next day. My suspicion/intuition is that it has something to do with a shift in my gut microbiome - from what I understand, alcohol can very easily disrupt one’s microbiome, and the state of my microbiome seems to have a significant influence on my mood. I haven’t missed the alcohol though. It’s actually been a blessing for my general health and wellbeing.
- grecy 2y ago
  Precisely the same experience here. Since Covid even a single drink makes me feel bad enough to not want to again… and I always had bad hangovers. This is different
- francisofascii 2y ago
  I had a similar experience. For years I drank about 2 beers a night. Then in my early 40s, had a bout of "long covid" that lasted about 6 months. I have fully recovered, but can't drink like I used to. If I have one or two beers, I feel crappy and down the next day. Also the buzz isn't quite the same.
- mattgreenrocks 2y ago

Insanity 2y ago

I feel like nowadays it is more socially acceptable to say you don’t drink than even just 10 years ago. I can’t recall the last time I was asked “why” after telling someone I don’t drink. All in all, I was fortunate that during university a close friend of mine also didn’t drink. Being the “odd one out” seems harder than being the “odd pair out” lol. edit: culture plays a role as well in how acceptable it is. I’m from a country that is heavy on alcohol usage though (Belgium).

kenjackson 2y ago
In the US it’s far more acceptable. I don’t drink and while I’ve been offered, no one ever pushes back. And I’ve never had problems being the only one at parties who didn’t.
- bradlys 2y ago
  This is YMMV. I still get a lot of “why don’t you drink?!! Come on, man!!” in the US. Especially in a city like NYC - you’re signing up to be a bit of a social outcast.
  - siamese_puff 2y ago
    I disassociate from allowing people like this into my life now.
    - moralestapia 2y ago
      Good for you. However, in society at large, social influence (excuse the bit of circularity) is an extremely powerful force driving people's lifestyle.

foobiekr 2y ago

A lot of people confuse the secondary effects of alcohol (basically, mostly, social permission) with the primary effects. Most developed countries have purged almost all ritual from their cultures, which means that there aren't really occasions for people to experiment with their behavior - and it provides air cover for engaging in riskier behaviors - and so alcohol provides the outlet for them. Alcohol is one of the most boring psychoactive experiences there is, it's the safest, the most predictable and the most repeatable. There's nothing challenging about it - happy drunks are going to be happy drunks, angry/emotional drunks are going to be angry/emotional drunks, people who use the context of alcohol to excuse behaviors that they feel they would otherwise be judged for (promiscuity, "I love you guys! no I really do!", etc. etc.) are doing just that. The only drug with more predictability than alcohol is caffeine, with the common opiates being next in line for being absolutely predictable - do X get Y. Alcohol is boring. Even pot or tobacco are more interesting, but they lack the social context that provides behavioral permissibility which is really what drives the ritual-lite use - going drinking on the weekend.

taeric 2y ago
So, I could get behind a lot of the idea you are pushing here. But, I question whether you have evidence to back it up? For one, to claim that most developed countries have purged ritual feels more like you are referring to some specific rituals. Or have amusing cuts on what you consider developed countries. You also sort of undercut yourself by noting that alcohol hits people in different, if repeatable ways; but you seem to think that will not be true for other drugs? From my experience, I would expect the same for pot. Tobacco, I confess I never really saw it impact anyone. Outside of getting them addicted. Simply stated, why do you think you would not see such variability of how other items impact people?
- coldtea 2y ago
  >For one, to claim that most developed countries have purged ritual feels more like you are referring to some specific rituals. They most likely mean all kinds of overt rituals societies used to have and some non-western societies still have. What kind of rituals do we have that you have in mind that we still have, and that are not either very peripheral to everyday life or have not been diminishing in importance and attendance year by year?

colechristensen 2y ago

>Why is it so hard for some people to understand that alcohol isn't appealing to everyone? People often don't understand that not everyone experiences a thing the same way. That what it's like for you isn't the same as what it's like for me. People think you experience alcoholic beverages exactly the same as they do and don't understand why you dislike them as a result.

bityard 2y ago

You are fortunate. There are many alcoholics who would trade anything to switch places with you. Probably a lot of the responses are from people who have seen how destructive alcohol can be when used in excess. I grew up in a blue-collar rural area where alcoholism wasn't just common, it was flat-out normal. Anyone who could get away with nursing a beer or 12 the whole day long and not get fired, usually did. My dad drank a lot and it caused a ton of problems with his marriage (leading to divorce) but at least he wasn't abusive. I am also somewhat lucky in that I never could acquire a taste for beer. Based on my family history and upbringing, I could have very easily slid into alcoholism otherwise. I'll never know for sure, but to keep even the possibility at bay, I have two hard rules: no drinking during the day and no drinking the night before work or having to be somewhere the next day.

coldtea 2y ago

>Why is it so hard for some people to understand that alcohol isn't appealing to everyone? Because it does appear to appeal to 90% of the population