3 ms·

Any career progression involves changes in the nature of the work. If the new job involves doing the same thing as the last job then (while it might be a great

by roenxi 2y ago

Any career progression involves changes in the nature of the work. If the new job involves doing the same thing as the last job then (while it might be a great job that you want to keep forever) it isn't career progress. The reason that the progression is expected to be IC -> EM is because that is a path that leads to software people being managed by other software people. Alternate paths lead to less efficient managers because they tend to have critical knowledge gaps.

bjornsing 2y ago
Let me add that it’s also an incentives thing. I’ve seen software companies where management is an entirely different career path, and it makes a lot of less talented ICs focus away from the work, jockeying for a place on the management train. And why shouldn’t they? So if you want junior engineers to really try to learn and contribute don’t tell them “well, if you really suck as an IC and focus on socializing you can be the boss of everyone here”. It’s pretty self explanatory actually.
supersahne 2y ago
Totally agree! Especially the second point. Often on HN or reddit people complain that their managers are "only managers" without engineering experience and thus are incapable of understanding the various technical requirements needed for the project.
creesch 2y ago
To be clear, I am not arguing there shouldn't be any changes. But when it involves effectively an entirely different skill set I strongly believe that something is not quite right. Do note that I specifically said many companies, not all companies. I think there certainly is room for software people being managed by other software people. If this is done in ways where the managing people also do keep being involved in the actual work in order to keep their skills and, more importantly maybe, their perspective up to date with what is happening. I see too many companies where this is not the case and I see ex-software people giving justifications based on skills and insights that have very little relevance with the current situation on the floor.
- roenxi 2y ago
  It involves a similar skillset. Especially if you see soft skills as something an IC should be capable of then you should basically have everything you need to be dumped into an EM role as an IC. If you don't the overlap is still quite substantial. And the companies of the world generally agree with the view that similar skillsets apply - that is why they keep promoting software engineers to be engineering managers. If the skills were different they'd promote more socially savvy individuals than you generally find in engineering. For an IC the application of those skills will be quite novel. But that is what career progression is. Same skills, new puzzle.

by roenxi 2y ago

bjornsing 2y ago

Let me add that it’s also an incentives thing. I’ve seen software companies where management is an entirely different career path, and it makes a lot of less talented ICs focus away from the work, jockeying for a place on the management train. And why shouldn’t they? So if you want junior engineers to really try to learn and contribute don’t tell them “well, if you really suck as an IC and focus on socializing you can be the boss of everyone here”. It’s pretty self explanatory actually.

supersahne 2y ago

Totally agree! Especially the second point. Often on HN or reddit people complain that their managers are "only managers" without engineering experience and thus are incapable of understanding the various technical requirements needed for the project.

creesch 2y ago

To be clear, I am not arguing there shouldn't be any changes. But when it involves effectively an entirely different skill set I strongly believe that something is not quite right. Do note that I specifically said many companies, not all companies. I think there certainly is room for software people being managed by other software people. If this is done in ways where the managing people also do keep being involved in the actual work in order to keep their skills and, more importantly maybe, their perspective up to date with what is happening. I see too many companies where this is not the case and I see ex-software people giving justifications based on skills and insights that have very little relevance with the current situation on the floor.

roenxi 2y ago
It involves a similar skillset. Especially if you see soft skills as something an IC should be capable of then you should basically have everything you need to be dumped into an EM role as an IC. If you don't the overlap is still quite substantial. And the companies of the world generally agree with the view that similar skillsets apply - that is why they keep promoting software engineers to be engineering managers. If the skills were different they'd promote more socially savvy individuals than you generally find in engineering. For an IC the application of those skills will be quite novel. But that is what career progression is. Same skills, new puzzle.