6 ms·

Babylon 5 remains almost unique in its particular tone of melodrama, its very theatrical acting with larger-than-life characters. I love it for that, despite on

by TillE 2y ago

Babylon 5 remains almost unique in its particular tone of melodrama, its very theatrical acting with larger-than-life characters. I love it for that, despite one or two actors who aren't very good. Midwinter's episode ratings are a pretty good guide to which ones are skippable, though there's only a handful of episodes that are truly disposable filler. It's a remarkable achievement for 90s TV.

hnlmorg 2y ago
It’s a funny show because it has so many flaws: - the acting is terrible, - dialog is pretty corny in places - the alien prosthetics look silly - the CGI, while technically impressive, look cartoonish (even in true in its era) Yes despite all this, it’s still amazing and, for me at least, it becomes very easy to look past those faults. In my opinion it’s one of the best sci-fi shows ever written for its world building. You genuinely buy into the politics. I just wish they weren’t messed around with the cancellation, then renewal of season 5 because that completely destroyed the pacing of the last two seasons.
- cbanek 2y ago
  While some parts can be pretty corny, let me call out the music as amazing. Each episode has a lot more unique music than I thought!
- pndy 2y ago
  Ivanova would personally rip your lungs out /s
- jasonwatkinspdx 2y ago
  The CGI was done on a shoestring budget, originally on Amigas and eventually on Dec Alphas. They were using Lightwave3D, which at the time was on the edge of affordable to students or indie producers. So it was neat seeing a tv show doing something you could do yourself on your home PC with enough patience and determination. It's a remarkable achievement but yes, it does look rather dated sadly. My main annoyance with B5 is how the alien designs echo human historic stereotypes. A lot of sci fi falls in this trap. The Minbari are meditative asians. The Centari are a decaying franco-romanesque empire. The Narn are primitive and violent with dark skin and exaggerated facial features. The humans are plucky American go getters. The Vorlons are the only real original alien design, but were deliberately made a blank canvas of mystery. Mind you in no way do I think it was malicious, just a lazy writing crutch others have used. Star Trek TNG had some pretty glaring examples of the same thing in early seasons. Star Wars patterns the Jedi after Samurai. Even if there's a universe/plot justification for why all the alien species are humanoid variations too, I think it's a lot more interesting if the writers can come up with unique histories and cultures for the aliens.
  - EarlKing 2y ago
    > on Amigas To be more specific, it was done on Video Toaster. Since the Video Toaster effectively guts the Amiga's video system and substitutes it with its own its hard to even call it an Amiga anymore. And yeah, it has numerous examples of very lazy writing: Minbari (Space Asians), Centauri (Space French), Narn (Space Palestinians) ... but the Vorlons as original? Really? They're the Space Zen Masters, spitting out zen fortune cookies to drive the plot forward. > I think it's a lot more interesting if the writers can come up with unique histories and cultures for the aliens. Not everyone can be Tolkien and write 5,000 years of history and a linguistic family tree, so I tend to cut writers some slack even if their fictive cultures are boring stereotypes, as long as they can create characters that aren't. For the most part I think JMS succeeded at that.
    - jasonwatkinspdx 2y ago
      Lightwave3D's renderer ran on the CPU as far as I know. The Toaster was for real time compositing effects and analog video i/o.
  - bsder 2y ago
    > My main annoyance with B5 is how the alien designs echo human historic stereotypes. A lot of sci fi falls in this trap. 1) The problem with TV is that you have to cough up an episode every single week on the fly. And JMS wrote a huge number of the episodes for Seasons 3 and 4 (I think all of them, but I can't find a citation). 2) Babylon 5 was specifically engineered to be TV budget friendly and was about $650K per episode. That puts significant limits on what you can do. Contrast to say Farscape at $1M or TNG at $1.5M per episode.
    - scarface_74 2y ago
      And the first 4 seasons it ran on an also ran network - PTEN - that only had 4 TV series during its entire run.
    - nobody9999 2y ago
      >1) The problem with TV is that you have to cough up an episode every single week on the fly. And JMS wrote a huge number of the episodes for Seasons 3 and 4 (I think all of them, but I can't find a citation). IIRC, JMS says so in one of the DVD extras for Season 3 or 4 (one of the JMS commentary tracks).
- smsm42 2y ago
  I think CGI-wise we are just spoiled by the multi-million dollar blockbuster CGI. For the time and the media their CGI is pretty good. And yes, it's not perfect, but completely adequate to the time I think. And I don't think the aliens looked "silly" at all - I saw much worse work on many shows, I think B5 had good variety and depth without going overboard - when you shooting over a hundred episodes, making designs that would take 12 hours for an actor to get into is going to be kinda hard. And to be honest, probably won't add that much to the show beyond the initial novelty moment.
  - actionfromafar 2y ago
    The CGI got comments when I talked about it with friends back then. “Oh that show with the cheesy effects?” I also don’t think it was too bad for its time, but I think it was too early to rely on CGI to that extent. Great show though.
    - compsciphd 2y ago
      watching on a small 4x3 TV in the 90s, the CGI didn't bother me.
      - ethbr1 2y ago
        It was state of the art for 3d CGI during its time, but it also happened at a time when miniature > 3d CGI. The station still looks pretty great...
      - willcipriano 2y ago
        The CGI doesn't bother me now, the space scenes are a small part of the show. This isn't Trek where the Enterprise is a character in and of itself. This is more Deep Space Nine. Babylon 5 is about politics and personalities, the spaceships and stuff are just the background.
        devoutsalsa 2y ago
        In my opinion, the 30 year old B5 CGI is better than the most recent season of Star Trek Discovery in 2024, which I found to be quite bad, especially in the opening scene of the first episode.
- ghaff 2y ago
  Yeah, there was a lot about B5 that was good but a friend of mine also told me it was the worst TV recommendation I ever gave them. You had to overlook a lot. In addition to some of the things you list--though I'd argue some of the acting was pretty good--the future of the show was often in doubt so at least the final season was basically vestigial.
- jghn 2y ago
  I’ve come to the conclusion over the years that the overwrought, corny dialogue is just how JMS rolls. But the man can still tell a good story
- pfannkuchen 2y ago
  Maybe in the not too distant we’ll be able to generate the last two seasons as they were originally intended to be.
helpfulclippy 2y ago
One thing I think B5 still comes in very strong for is maintaining a coherent vision throughout the series. Modern TV storytelling will develop a story arc, but that arc is generally contained to a season. The characters as a whole develop in ways that matter between seasons, but I usually don't get the sense that each season is working in concert to tell a coherent and well-paced story. Some more recent series like Breaking Bad (or Better Call Saul, for that matter) have done a really good job of telling a great story that unfolds over the whole run of the show -- but I feel it remains the exception.
- jasonwatkinspdx 2y ago
  Yeah, it's hard for writers to do that without a big upfront commitment from the studio. Typically they only get one season assured, if that. And then if the show catches an audience, suddenly the studio flips and demands the writers string it out into extra seasons. We all know shows that started out strong then got ruined by this stuff, like Lost or Heros. Or the internet's favorite punching bag, Game of Thrones. I think The Wire is an interesting exception. They never got more than a single season commitment, but still managed to make something that feels cohesive over 5 seasons. They did it by using an ensemble cast where character's arcs can be extended in later seasons, but with new characters entering the mix as well. They also picked a different theme for each season, looking at the failures of american institutions from different directions, and resolving that theme within each single season. The result is each season feels distinct and can stand alone, but they also form a cohesive whole.
  - RAM-bunctious 2y ago
    Conversely, I feel like Lost is massively in the opposite category. They did get their massive up-front commitment for 6 seasons while in season 2. The character and thematic arcs are probably some of the best I've seen in TV, while handling a massive ensemble cast. Heroes, I agree with you, no question.
    - ethbr1 2y ago
      The Wire was definitely a masterclass in this, as each season has dangling threads that seem so obviously picked up and driven in subsequent seasons, but nothing that's left dangling to an extent you're disappointed. That said, it's also aided by primarily being a story about characters rather than plot. I always thought Lost got a bad rap for that. It was actually a story about characters, but its fandom thought it was very much about plot. Hence the hate for the finale (which I thought was wonderful)
MrVandemar 2y ago
> though there's only a handful of episodes that are truly disposable filler You refer, of course, to Season 5.
- ethbr1 2y ago
  There was a season 5? /s
YinglingHeavy 2y ago
[flagged]

by TillE 2y ago

hnlmorg 2y ago

It’s a funny show because it has so many flaws: - the acting is terrible, - dialog is pretty corny in places - the alien prosthetics look silly - the CGI, while technically impressive, look cartoonish (even in true in its era) Yes despite all this, it’s still amazing and, for me at least, it becomes very easy to look past those faults. In my opinion it’s one of the best sci-fi shows ever written for its world building. You genuinely buy into the politics. I just wish they weren’t messed around with the cancellation, then renewal of season 5 because that completely destroyed the pacing of the last two seasons.

cbanek 2y ago
While some parts can be pretty corny, let me call out the music as amazing. Each episode has a lot more unique music than I thought!
pndy 2y ago
Ivanova would personally rip your lungs out /s
jasonwatkinspdx 2y ago
The CGI was done on a shoestring budget, originally on Amigas and eventually on Dec Alphas. They were using Lightwave3D, which at the time was on the edge of affordable to students or indie producers. So it was neat seeing a tv show doing something you could do yourself on your home PC with enough patience and determination. It's a remarkable achievement but yes, it does look rather dated sadly. My main annoyance with B5 is how the alien designs echo human historic stereotypes. A lot of sci fi falls in this trap. The Minbari are meditative asians. The Centari are a decaying franco-romanesque empire. The Narn are primitive and violent with dark skin and exaggerated facial features. The humans are plucky American go getters. The Vorlons are the only real original alien design, but were deliberately made a blank canvas of mystery. Mind you in no way do I think it was malicious, just a lazy writing crutch others have used. Star Trek TNG had some pretty glaring examples of the same thing in early seasons. Star Wars patterns the Jedi after Samurai. Even if there's a universe/plot justification for why all the alien species are humanoid variations too, I think it's a lot more interesting if the writers can come up with unique histories and cultures for the aliens.
- EarlKing 2y ago
  > on Amigas To be more specific, it was done on Video Toaster. Since the Video Toaster effectively guts the Amiga's video system and substitutes it with its own its hard to even call it an Amiga anymore. And yeah, it has numerous examples of very lazy writing: Minbari (Space Asians), Centauri (Space French), Narn (Space Palestinians) ... but the Vorlons as original? Really? They're the Space Zen Masters, spitting out zen fortune cookies to drive the plot forward. > I think it's a lot more interesting if the writers can come up with unique histories and cultures for the aliens. Not everyone can be Tolkien and write 5,000 years of history and a linguistic family tree, so I tend to cut writers some slack even if their fictive cultures are boring stereotypes, as long as they can create characters that aren't. For the most part I think JMS succeeded at that.
  - jasonwatkinspdx 2y ago
    Lightwave3D's renderer ran on the CPU as far as I know. The Toaster was for real time compositing effects and analog video i/o.
- bsder 2y ago
  > My main annoyance with B5 is how the alien designs echo human historic stereotypes. A lot of sci fi falls in this trap. 1) The problem with TV is that you have to cough up an episode every single week on the fly. And JMS wrote a huge number of the episodes for Seasons 3 and 4 (I think all of them, but I can't find a citation). 2) Babylon 5 was specifically engineered to be TV budget friendly and was about $650K per episode. That puts significant limits on what you can do. Contrast to say Farscape at $1M or TNG at $1.5M per episode.
  - scarface_74 2y ago
    And the first 4 seasons it ran on an also ran network - PTEN - that only had 4 TV series during its entire run.
  - nobody9999 2y ago
    >1) The problem with TV is that you have to cough up an episode every single week on the fly. And JMS wrote a huge number of the episodes for Seasons 3 and 4 (I think all of them, but I can't find a citation). IIRC, JMS says so in one of the DVD extras for Season 3 or 4 (one of the JMS commentary tracks).
smsm42 2y ago
I think CGI-wise we are just spoiled by the multi-million dollar blockbuster CGI. For the time and the media their CGI is pretty good. And yes, it's not perfect, but completely adequate to the time I think. And I don't think the aliens looked "silly" at all - I saw much worse work on many shows, I think B5 had good variety and depth without going overboard - when you shooting over a hundred episodes, making designs that would take 12 hours for an actor to get into is going to be kinda hard. And to be honest, probably won't add that much to the show beyond the initial novelty moment.
- actionfromafar 2y ago
  The CGI got comments when I talked about it with friends back then. “Oh that show with the cheesy effects?” I also don’t think it was too bad for its time, but I think it was too early to rely on CGI to that extent. Great show though.
  - compsciphd 2y ago
    watching on a small 4x3 TV in the 90s, the CGI didn't bother me.
    - ethbr1 2y ago
      It was state of the art for 3d CGI during its time, but it also happened at a time when miniature > 3d CGI. The station still looks pretty great...
    - willcipriano 2y ago
      The CGI doesn't bother me now, the space scenes are a small part of the show. This isn't Trek where the Enterprise is a character in and of itself. This is more Deep Space Nine. Babylon 5 is about politics and personalities, the spaceships and stuff are just the background.
      - devoutsalsa 2y ago
        In my opinion, the 30 year old B5 CGI is better than the most recent season of Star Trek Discovery in 2024, which I found to be quite bad, especially in the opening scene of the first episode.
ghaff 2y ago
Yeah, there was a lot about B5 that was good but a friend of mine also told me it was the worst TV recommendation I ever gave them. You had to overlook a lot. In addition to some of the things you list--though I'd argue some of the acting was pretty good--the future of the show was often in doubt so at least the final season was basically vestigial.
jghn 2y ago
I’ve come to the conclusion over the years that the overwrought, corny dialogue is just how JMS rolls. But the man can still tell a good story
pfannkuchen 2y ago
Maybe in the not too distant we’ll be able to generate the last two seasons as they were originally intended to be.

helpfulclippy 2y ago

One thing I think B5 still comes in very strong for is maintaining a coherent vision throughout the series. Modern TV storytelling will develop a story arc, but that arc is generally contained to a season. The characters as a whole develop in ways that matter between seasons, but I usually don't get the sense that each season is working in concert to tell a coherent and well-paced story. Some more recent series like Breaking Bad (or Better Call Saul, for that matter) have done a really good job of telling a great story that unfolds over the whole run of the show -- but I feel it remains the exception.

jasonwatkinspdx 2y ago
Yeah, it's hard for writers to do that without a big upfront commitment from the studio. Typically they only get one season assured, if that. And then if the show catches an audience, suddenly the studio flips and demands the writers string it out into extra seasons. We all know shows that started out strong then got ruined by this stuff, like Lost or Heros. Or the internet's favorite punching bag, Game of Thrones. I think The Wire is an interesting exception. They never got more than a single season commitment, but still managed to make something that feels cohesive over 5 seasons. They did it by using an ensemble cast where character's arcs can be extended in later seasons, but with new characters entering the mix as well. They also picked a different theme for each season, looking at the failures of american institutions from different directions, and resolving that theme within each single season. The result is each season feels distinct and can stand alone, but they also form a cohesive whole.
- RAM-bunctious 2y ago
  Conversely, I feel like Lost is massively in the opposite category. They did get their massive up-front commitment for 6 seasons while in season 2. The character and thematic arcs are probably some of the best I've seen in TV, while handling a massive ensemble cast. Heroes, I agree with you, no question.
  - ethbr1 2y ago
    The Wire was definitely a masterclass in this, as each season has dangling threads that seem so obviously picked up and driven in subsequent seasons, but nothing that's left dangling to an extent you're disappointed. That said, it's also aided by primarily being a story about characters rather than plot. I always thought Lost got a bad rap for that. It was actually a story about characters, but its fandom thought it was very much about plot. Hence the hate for the finale (which I thought was wonderful)

MrVandemar 2y ago

> though there's only a handful of episodes that are truly disposable filler You refer, of course, to Season 5.

ethbr1 2y ago
There was a season 5? /s

YinglingHeavy 2y ago

[flagged]