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Agreed about being able to skip the island sequence in _Consider Phlebas_. I recently reread the book after many years, and in my memory that section looms larg

Agreed about being able to skip the island sequence in _Consider Phlebas_. I recently reread the book after many years, and in my memory that section looms large, and I expected it to be 100 pages. But it's ~20. It was much easier the second time around, and I think it serves to underscore how committed the Culture is to personal agency, to the extent that if citizens wish to give themselves over to an absurdly evil charismatic leader, no-one will stop them. There was also something interesting about the mind on the shuttle on standby, its almost toddler-like character, told "not to look" at the goings on on the island by the orbital. And its innocent, trusting self is eventually murdered by Horza during the escape, adding some black dark pigment to Horza's already complex character hue.

Vecr 2y ago
Personal agency as long as you're fine with the mind control, the resources used are minimal, and you don't interfere with what the minds want. No personal agency to be found over the more broad course of the future, however.
- simpaticoder 2y ago
  >as you're fine with the mind control It does seem a bit silly to argue about the particulars of a fantasy utopia. Banks posits the conceit that super AI Minds will be benevolent, and of course this need not be the case (plenty of counter-examples in SF, one of my favorites being Greg Benford's Galactic Center series). But note that within the Culture, mind reading (let alone mind control) without permission will get a Mind immediately ostracized from society, one of the few things that gets this treatment. For example the Grey Area uses such a power to suss out genocidal guilt, is treated with extreme disdain by other Minds. See https://theculture.fandom.com/wiki/Grey_Area https://theculture.fandom.com/wiki/Grey_Area As for "personal agency over the broad course of the future", note that the vast majority of humans don't have that, and will never have that, with or without Minds. If one can have benevolent AI gods at the cost of the very few egos affected, on utilitarian grounds that is an acceptable trade-off. On a personal note, I think the relationship between people and AIs will be far more complex than just all good (Culture) or all bad (Skynet). In fact, I expect the reality to be a combination with absurd atrocities that would make Terry Pratchett giggle in his grave.
  - Vecr 2y ago
    >as you're fine with the mind control The mind control is in the design of the language and the constraint the Minds place on the brain configurations and tech of the other characters. Banks is quite subtle about it, but it's pretty clearly there.

Vecr 2y ago

Personal agency as long as you're fine with the mind control, the resources used are minimal, and you don't interfere with what the minds want. No personal agency to be found over the more broad course of the future, however.

simpaticoder 2y ago
>as you're fine with the mind control It does seem a bit silly to argue about the particulars of a fantasy utopia. Banks posits the conceit that super AI Minds will be benevolent, and of course this need not be the case (plenty of counter-examples in SF, one of my favorites being Greg Benford's Galactic Center series). But note that within the Culture, mind reading (let alone mind control) without permission will get a Mind immediately ostracized from society, one of the few things that gets this treatment. For example the Grey Area uses such a power to suss out genocidal guilt, is treated with extreme disdain by other Minds. See https://theculture.fandom.com/wiki/Grey_Area https://theculture.fandom.com/wiki/Grey_Area As for "personal agency over the broad course of the future", note that the vast majority of humans don't have that, and will never have that, with or without Minds. If one can have benevolent AI gods at the cost of the very few egos affected, on utilitarian grounds that is an acceptable trade-off. On a personal note, I think the relationship between people and AIs will be far more complex than just all good (Culture) or all bad (Skynet). In fact, I expect the reality to be a combination with absurd atrocities that would make Terry Pratchett giggle in his grave.
- Vecr 2y ago
  >as you're fine with the mind control The mind control is in the design of the language and the constraint the Minds place on the brain configurations and tech of the other characters. Banks is quite subtle about it, but it's pretty clearly there.