4 ms·

Ask HN: Should touch typing be a required skill for software engineering jobs?

3 points by amichail 2y ago

It's hard to imagine a computer programmer being productive without this essential life skill.

lm28469 2y ago
If typing speed is your bottleneck you're probably about to be replaced by an LLM anyways
- amichail 2y ago
  Looking at the keyboard while you type is a distraction. It's not just about speed.
  - Gunnerhead 2y ago
    Distraction from what? It’s not like you’re driving your car as you type.
dave4420 2y ago
I can’t touch type. I spend more time thinking than I do typing. (Plus, I am usually also thinking while I type.) Why do you say it is difficult to imagine being productive without this skill?
- amichail 2y ago
  When you do know what you want to type (after some thinking), do you really want your typing to slow you down?
  - DamonHD 2y ago
    It is rarely going to be a significant factor for anything more creative than copy typing.
  - dave4420 2y ago
    Not really. But I am still productive enough without being able to touch type. And it’s not at all obvious to me that touch typing is the most important thing I could learn. Improving my knowledge of CSS and learning Elixir feel like they would do more to make me more productive at work. Maybe even memorising advanced Typescript type hackery.
    - amichail 2y ago
      Touch typing isn't all that hard to learn though. So why not try to learn it?
      - dave4420 2y ago
        It would take a time investment I’m not particularly interested in making, and I don’t think it would make me noticeably better at my job. Why do you think being able to type faster is a better win than being able to type better code, or being able to more quickly decide what to type?
        amichail 2y ago
        Tech is always changing but your qwerty keyboard will never change.
        DamonHD 2y ago
        Factually untrue. My keyboard changes somewhat every time I buy a new laptop or have to sit down in front of someone else's machine for a while, eg a pool machine at uni. Especially the UK/US thing. Or use my phone and its various virtual keyboards. My daughter has just acquired one of the older MacBooks with a soft/programmable bar at the top. That changes dynamically. Would have broken my use of one of the few keys I do 'touch' type with muscle memory: ESC for vi, so I skipped that round of Macs. Please don't make careless absolute or other very strong (wrong) statements if you want to have useful conversations without infuriating those who are careful with words.
        2y ago
  - Trapais 2y ago
    Have you tried programming in something other than notepad.exe? Modern IDEs have auto complete so impressive, that you don't need to type much anyway. I type several symbols then stop to let the editor suggest the rest of the word. Can I touch type it myself? Yes. Do I want to? No. There wouldn't be much difference if I typed slower. NB. When I say "modern IDEs" I mean anything since around Visual Assist, which sorted suggestions not alphabetically, but depending on context. I don't even mean copilot.
erik_seaberg 2y ago
I've touch typed since high school (on loud typewriters) and took up Emacs around 1989, but I think people are now less often generating complete chunks of code from scratch and more often refactoring existing code using awkward keybinds that didn't exist when they learned (or should have).
DamonHD 2y ago
I can't really touch type. I have been a successful dev in finance (plus serial start-up founder) and retired early, and I am now doing a PhD. IMHO touch typing is clearly not essential. One reason I can't is because I spent a fair amount of time doing sysadmin and user support for multinationals, using lots of different keyboards with US / UK / other layouts. I simply didn't have the luxury of a fixed layout to get fast against. And sysadmin / dev success is simply not measured in WPM.
- amichail 2y ago
  But for someone who uses the same kind of keyboard every day, I would say that touch typing is a more important life skill than driving.
  - DamonHD 2y ago
    I also don't drive much either, though I can. I suspect that you have a very narrow view of what are the realities and priorities for all the people that develop software all over the world. That or you should maybe rein in the hyperbole.
eesmith 2y ago
Steve Yegge had a rant about this some 16 years ago. https://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/09/programmings-dirtiest-little-secret.html https://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/09/programmings-dirtie... > Here's the industry's dirty secret: Programmers who don't touch-type fit a profile. ... The profile is this: non-touch-typists have to make sacrifices in order to sustain their productivity. Jeff Atwood commentary at https://blog.codinghorror.com/we-are-typists-first-programmers-second/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/we-are-typists-first-programme... . 102 HN comments at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=300920 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=300920 (plus a scattering of comments in the 9 other postings). 315 Reddit comments at https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/70sqr/programmings_dirtiest_little_secret/ https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/70sqr/programm... .
illuminant 2y ago
I am a proficient touch typist myself by which code and vi placement fidgets flow endlessly from self guiding fingers. I have long passwords my fingers know and my brain does not. An early intellectual mentor I had growing up, who was the hardest of hard core C developers, was a hunt and peck typist. Didn't seem to inconvenience him a bit.
gregjor 2y ago
I don’t think so. I can touch-type but I have worked with many excellent programmers who can’t. Consider Stephen Hawking as an extreme example. Productive? Since we don’t have a way to measure “being productive” in an objective or meaningful way you just assume without evidence that inability to touch-type decreases productivity. Programming requires typing but only incidentally — the real work happens in the brain, not in the fingers. I’d concentrate on requiring ability to solve problems in code first, and then ability to program. Typing falls much lower on the list of desired skills. Too many programmers can’t even program effectively.
- basementcat 2y ago
  Stephen Hawking wasn’t a computer programmer.
  - gregjor 2y ago
    But I would call him productive, writing several books and many scientific papers.
dragonwriter 2y ago
> Should touch typing be a required skill for software engineering jobs? No. > It's hard to imagine a computer programmer being productive without this essential life skill. To the extent this is not a failure of imagination, then, the problem is solved by requiring programmers to be productive. Note that this also deals with the possibility that your impression is a failure of imagination.
JohnFen 2y ago
I don't see why. Almost none of the devs I know can touch type, and it doesn't seem to affect them. At least, they aren't any less effective at their jobs than those who can.
gaws 2y ago
Absolutely.
marssaxman 2y ago
I shouldn't think so. I've been touch typing since I was quite young, and I can type more quickly than most people do, but I don't believe that this makes me more productive: I spend far more time reading and thinking than I ever do writing, and I think this is true for most people. (I did have one coworker, years ago, for whom this did not seem to be true: he routinely cranked out the largest volumes of code I've ever seen, by an order of magnitude - but his work was as notable for its sloppy repetition, bugginess, poor spelling, and total lack of abstraction as for its largeness. I think the team might have been more productive as a whole if he had been forced not to touch-type, perhaps by tying one of his hands behind his back while he worked.)

3 points by amichail 2y ago

It's hard to imagine a computer programmer being productive without this essential life skill.

lm28469 2y ago

If typing speed is your bottleneck you're probably about to be replaced by an LLM anyways

amichail 2y ago
Looking at the keyboard while you type is a distraction. It's not just about speed.
- Gunnerhead 2y ago
  Distraction from what? It’s not like you’re driving your car as you type.

dave4420 2y ago

I can’t touch type. I spend more time thinking than I do typing. (Plus, I am usually also thinking while I type.) Why do you say it is difficult to imagine being productive without this skill?

amichail 2y ago
When you do know what you want to type (after some thinking), do you really want your typing to slow you down?
- DamonHD 2y ago
  It is rarely going to be a significant factor for anything more creative than copy typing.
- dave4420 2y ago
  Not really. But I am still productive enough without being able to touch type. And it’s not at all obvious to me that touch typing is the most important thing I could learn. Improving my knowledge of CSS and learning Elixir feel like they would do more to make me more productive at work. Maybe even memorising advanced Typescript type hackery.
  - amichail 2y ago
    Touch typing isn't all that hard to learn though. So why not try to learn it?
    - dave4420 2y ago
      It would take a time investment I’m not particularly interested in making, and I don’t think it would make me noticeably better at my job. Why do you think being able to type faster is a better win than being able to type better code, or being able to more quickly decide what to type?
      - amichail 2y ago
        Tech is always changing but your qwerty keyboard will never change.
        DamonHD 2y ago
        Factually untrue. My keyboard changes somewhat every time I buy a new laptop or have to sit down in front of someone else's machine for a while, eg a pool machine at uni. Especially the UK/US thing. Or use my phone and its various virtual keyboards. My daughter has just acquired one of the older MacBooks with a soft/programmable bar at the top. That changes dynamically. Would have broken my use of one of the few keys I do 'touch' type with muscle memory: ESC for vi, so I skipped that round of Macs. Please don't make careless absolute or other very strong (wrong) statements if you want to have useful conversations without infuriating those who are careful with words.
        2y ago
- Trapais 2y ago
  Have you tried programming in something other than notepad.exe? Modern IDEs have auto complete so impressive, that you don't need to type much anyway. I type several symbols then stop to let the editor suggest the rest of the word. Can I touch type it myself? Yes. Do I want to? No. There wouldn't be much difference if I typed slower. NB. When I say "modern IDEs" I mean anything since around Visual Assist, which sorted suggestions not alphabetically, but depending on context. I don't even mean copilot.

erik_seaberg 2y ago

I've touch typed since high school (on loud typewriters) and took up Emacs around 1989, but I think people are now less often generating complete chunks of code from scratch and more often refactoring existing code using awkward keybinds that didn't exist when they learned (or should have).

DamonHD 2y ago

I can't really touch type. I have been a successful dev in finance (plus serial start-up founder) and retired early, and I am now doing a PhD. IMHO touch typing is clearly not essential. One reason I can't is because I spent a fair amount of time doing sysadmin and user support for multinationals, using lots of different keyboards with US / UK / other layouts. I simply didn't have the luxury of a fixed layout to get fast against. And sysadmin / dev success is simply not measured in WPM.

amichail 2y ago
But for someone who uses the same kind of keyboard every day, I would say that touch typing is a more important life skill than driving.
- DamonHD 2y ago
  I also don't drive much either, though I can. I suspect that you have a very narrow view of what are the realities and priorities for all the people that develop software all over the world. That or you should maybe rein in the hyperbole.

eesmith 2y ago

Steve Yegge had a rant about this some 16 years ago. https://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/09/programmings-dirtiest-little-secret.html https://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/09/programmings-dirtie... > Here's the industry's dirty secret: Programmers who don't touch-type fit a profile. ... The profile is this: non-touch-typists have to make sacrifices in order to sustain their productivity. Jeff Atwood commentary at https://blog.codinghorror.com/we-are-typists-first-programmers-second/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/we-are-typists-first-programme... . 102 HN comments at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=300920 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=300920 (plus a scattering of comments in the 9 other postings). 315 Reddit comments at https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/70sqr/programmings_dirtiest_little_secret/ https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/70sqr/programm... .

illuminant 2y ago

I am a proficient touch typist myself by which code and vi placement fidgets flow endlessly from self guiding fingers. I have long passwords my fingers know and my brain does not. An early intellectual mentor I had growing up, who was the hardest of hard core C developers, was a hunt and peck typist. Didn't seem to inconvenience him a bit.

gregjor 2y ago

I don’t think so. I can touch-type but I have worked with many excellent programmers who can’t. Consider Stephen Hawking as an extreme example. Productive? Since we don’t have a way to measure “being productive” in an objective or meaningful way you just assume without evidence that inability to touch-type decreases productivity. Programming requires typing but only incidentally — the real work happens in the brain, not in the fingers. I’d concentrate on requiring ability to solve problems in code first, and then ability to program. Typing falls much lower on the list of desired skills. Too many programmers can’t even program effectively.

basementcat 2y ago
Stephen Hawking wasn’t a computer programmer.
- gregjor 2y ago
  But I would call him productive, writing several books and many scientific papers.

dragonwriter 2y ago

> Should touch typing be a required skill for software engineering jobs? No. > It's hard to imagine a computer programmer being productive without this essential life skill. To the extent this is not a failure of imagination, then, the problem is solved by requiring programmers to be productive. Note that this also deals with the possibility that your impression is a failure of imagination.

JohnFen 2y ago

I don't see why. Almost none of the devs I know can touch type, and it doesn't seem to affect them. At least, they aren't any less effective at their jobs than those who can.

gaws 2y ago

Absolutely.

marssaxman 2y ago

I shouldn't think so. I've been touch typing since I was quite young, and I can type more quickly than most people do, but I don't believe that this makes me more productive: I spend far more time reading and thinking than I ever do writing, and I think this is true for most people. (I did have one coworker, years ago, for whom this did not seem to be true: he routinely cranked out the largest volumes of code I've ever seen, by an order of magnitude - but his work was as notable for its sloppy repetition, bugginess, poor spelling, and total lack of abstraction as for its largeness. I think the team might have been more productive as a whole if he had been forced not to touch-type, perhaps by tying one of his hands behind his back while he worked.)