3 ms·

He hasn't even read Excession! To me it is the pinnacle of the Culture novels. It mixes the semi-absurdity and silliness of the absurdly powerful minds (AI in

He hasn't even read Excession! To me it is the pinnacle of the Culture novels. It mixes the semi-absurdity and silliness of the absurdly powerful minds (AI in control of a ship), individual 'humans' in a post-scarcity civilization, and the deadly seriousness of games of galactic civilizations. It also has an absolutely great sequence of the minds having an online conversation. I do agree with his consider phelebas hesitancy. I still enjoy it, but it is clearly his early ideas and he's still sounding out his literary sci-fi tone and what the culture is. And you can skip the section where the protagonist gets trapped on an island with a cannibal. I think it was influenced by the sort of JG Ballard horror from the same period, and doesn't really work. He never really does something like that again in any of the culture books.

throwaway55340 2y ago
Surface Detail or Use of Weapons qualifies. Although Use of Weapons was written much earlier than released, IIRC.
- mattmanser 2y ago
  Use of Weapons is great. I struggled a bit with Surface Detail and found it a bit meandering, like a few of the later books. It was good, but I definitely rate others above it. Excession, Player of Games and Use of Weapons are probably my top Culture novels. With Feersum Endjinn up there in his general SF work, though I must admit I've only read it once as I don't have a copy. Probably far too late for this thread, but lots of his non-SF work is amazing too. Though often dark and dealing with uncomfortable themes. The plots and themes of Song Of Stones + The Wasp Factory have popped into my head for decades after I read them.
davedx 2y ago
I love Consider Phlebas, it’s a right old romp, the pace always pulls me right in.
simpaticoder 2y ago
Agreed about being able to skip the island sequence in _Consider Phlebas_. I recently reread the book after many years, and in my memory that section looms large, and I expected it to be 100 pages. But it's ~20. It was much easier the second time around, and I think it serves to underscore how committed the Culture is to personal agency, to the extent that if citizens wish to give themselves over to an absurdly evil charismatic leader, no-one will stop them. There was also something interesting about the mind on the shuttle on standby, its almost toddler-like character, told "not to look" at the goings on on the island by the orbital. And its innocent, trusting self is eventually murdered by Horza during the escape, adding some black dark pigment to Horza's already complex character hue.
- Vecr 2y ago
  Personal agency as long as you're fine with the mind control, the resources used are minimal, and you don't interfere with what the minds want. No personal agency to be found over the more broad course of the future, however.
  - simpaticoder 2y ago
    >as you're fine with the mind control It does seem a bit silly to argue about the particulars of a fantasy utopia. Banks posits the conceit that super AI Minds will be benevolent, and of course this need not be the case (plenty of counter-examples in SF, one of my favorites being Greg Benford's Galactic Center series). But note that within the Culture, mind reading (let alone mind control) without permission will get a Mind immediately ostracized from society, one of the few things that gets this treatment. For example the Grey Area uses such a power to suss out genocidal guilt, is treated with extreme disdain by other Minds. See https://theculture.fandom.com/wiki/Grey_Area https://theculture.fandom.com/wiki/Grey_Area As for "personal agency over the broad course of the future", note that the vast majority of humans don't have that, and will never have that, with or without Minds. If one can have benevolent AI gods at the cost of the very few egos affected, on utilitarian grounds that is an acceptable trade-off. On a personal note, I think the relationship between people and AIs will be far more complex than just all good (Culture) or all bad (Skynet). In fact, I expect the reality to be a combination with absurd atrocities that would make Terry Pratchett giggle in his grave.

throwaway55340 2y ago

Surface Detail or Use of Weapons qualifies. Although Use of Weapons was written much earlier than released, IIRC.

mattmanser 2y ago
Use of Weapons is great. I struggled a bit with Surface Detail and found it a bit meandering, like a few of the later books. It was good, but I definitely rate others above it. Excession, Player of Games and Use of Weapons are probably my top Culture novels. With Feersum Endjinn up there in his general SF work, though I must admit I've only read it once as I don't have a copy. Probably far too late for this thread, but lots of his non-SF work is amazing too. Though often dark and dealing with uncomfortable themes. The plots and themes of Song Of Stones + The Wasp Factory have popped into my head for decades after I read them.

davedx 2y ago

I love Consider Phlebas, it’s a right old romp, the pace always pulls me right in.

simpaticoder 2y ago

Agreed about being able to skip the island sequence in _Consider Phlebas_. I recently reread the book after many years, and in my memory that section looms large, and I expected it to be 100 pages. But it's ~20. It was much easier the second time around, and I think it serves to underscore how committed the Culture is to personal agency, to the extent that if citizens wish to give themselves over to an absurdly evil charismatic leader, no-one will stop them. There was also something interesting about the mind on the shuttle on standby, its almost toddler-like character, told "not to look" at the goings on on the island by the orbital. And its innocent, trusting self is eventually murdered by Horza during the escape, adding some black dark pigment to Horza's already complex character hue.

Vecr 2y ago
Personal agency as long as you're fine with the mind control, the resources used are minimal, and you don't interfere with what the minds want. No personal agency to be found over the more broad course of the future, however.
- simpaticoder 2y ago
  >as you're fine with the mind control It does seem a bit silly to argue about the particulars of a fantasy utopia. Banks posits the conceit that super AI Minds will be benevolent, and of course this need not be the case (plenty of counter-examples in SF, one of my favorites being Greg Benford's Galactic Center series). But note that within the Culture, mind reading (let alone mind control) without permission will get a Mind immediately ostracized from society, one of the few things that gets this treatment. For example the Grey Area uses such a power to suss out genocidal guilt, is treated with extreme disdain by other Minds. See https://theculture.fandom.com/wiki/Grey_Area https://theculture.fandom.com/wiki/Grey_Area As for "personal agency over the broad course of the future", note that the vast majority of humans don't have that, and will never have that, with or without Minds. If one can have benevolent AI gods at the cost of the very few egos affected, on utilitarian grounds that is an acceptable trade-off. On a personal note, I think the relationship between people and AIs will be far more complex than just all good (Culture) or all bad (Skynet). In fact, I expect the reality to be a combination with absurd atrocities that would make Terry Pratchett giggle in his grave.