5 ms·

Health care is no different than any other service. If you are able to increase the availability as well as lower the price it helps everyone. Including the poo

by pelle 18y ago

Health care is no different than any other service. If you are able to increase the availability as well as lower the price it helps everyone. Including the poor.

davidw 18y ago
There's always going to be a cutoff point, though, where people are unprofitable. Introducing some market oriented reforms might improve things, but you simply can't get around the fact that in a purely profit-oriented system, some people are not worth the money it would cost to save their lives or reduce their suffering. There are plenty of products where the market drives prices down, but doesn't make them free or available to everyone, and in most cases that's just fine. Some people and some societies take the view that in some way or another, things like food, shelter, and yes, at least basic health care ought to be available to everyone, even if it is not profitable. That's "social engineering".
- mmmurf 18y ago
  True. I don't think anyone would object to helping the 1% of people who are actually in that category. The problem is that interest groups hijack the programs in order to win handouts for those who don't really need the programs.
  - loumf 18y ago
    Where does this 1% come from? As a back of the envelope calculation, I would guess that almost all senior citizens are unprofitable to insure -- that's way more than 1%. Even if I'm off by a lot, it's still way more than 1% -- and I haven't addressed the rest of the population.
    - mmmurf 18y ago
      Only unprofitable if you decide that everyone deserves the latest, greatest, cutting-edge medical care. Healthcare prices have come way down in the past two decades, the issue is that nobody wants 1990 level care, which could be administered at a fraction of the price of delivering all of the latest advancements. The "healthcare costs are rising" meme is false. It's like saying "the price of supercomputers is rising". In non-inflation-adjusted dollars, the top-end supercomputer from IBM costs more than the top-end supercomputer from IBM cost 10 years ago, but the price per unit of computation has gone way down. Healthcare prices have done the same thing, but everyone wants the best possible at all times. (I want this too, but at least I try to appreciate that what I'm getting today is significantly better than 10 years ago)
    - DabAsteroid 18y ago
      unprofitable to insure It is not possible for someone to be unprofitable to insure. Why do you think it could be? If you are finding your bets unprofitable, try changing the amounts that you are betting.
  - arockwell 18y ago
    Take a look at a list of what is considered an uninsurable condition for personal health insurance. That alone would hit more than 1% of the population.
    - mmmurf 18y ago
      Do you happen to have a list of these?
      - arockwell 18y ago
        I think it is state by state, but quite possibly varies from company to company. I found this list (which is similar to ones I've seen before), which is for Ohio: http://www.healthcarereform.ohio.gov/HCRDoc/RepresentativeListofUninsurableConditions.pdf http://www.healthcarereform.ohio.gov/HCRDoc/RepresentativeLi.... Some of the ones on the list are pretty shocking and many of them are hereditary.
gnaritas 18y ago
Health is very different from other services, profit should not be the goal. Business does not attempt to help people, but to maximize profit, which does not necessarily mean increasing availability or lowering prices at all. It might be more profitable to dump the lower income people and jack up the prices on those who can afford it. Unlike other industries, getting service is often a literal life or death issue, you have to pay or you might die; morally this makes health care very different from other industries.
- jmtulloss 18y ago
  I agree with you, but it's not that black and white. Insurance companies are usually the ones paying, not the individual. As such, they have a lot of control over the price (especially in the case of medicare). While it might be life or death for the individual, it's not for the insurance company.
  - gnaritas 18y ago
    Which is a big part of the problem, we've put an entity between doctor and patient who's motive is profit rather than helping the patient. Insurance companies figured out a long time ago that the best way to profit was to deny claims and avoid paying in any way they can. An entire sub-industry has popped up around coding claims correctly because doctors have figured out what they can and can't get paid for, the effect being the insurance companies now basically dictate treatments rather than the doctor. Frankly it's extremely fucked up and it's caused entirely by companies seeing the most profit.
    - jmtulloss 18y ago
      Can't argue with that.
- benl 18y ago
  Profit is the world's way of signaling that you are doing something in an efficient, effective, and long-term sustainable way. So, given that health care is one of the most fundamental individual needs, profit most definitely should be the goal. But health care is not the most fundamental need -- that would be food. I find it puzzling that people don't apply the same arguement to this need. Why not say that profit shouldn't be the goal of the food industry? And that supermarkets are immoral for making a profit at the expense of hungry people? Well, because it's clearly nonsense, of course. But I wonder if it would seem like nonsense if we lived in a world where there was no free market in food supply. We might worry that greedy corporations would only be interested in serving expensive foods to rich people.

by pelle 18y ago

Health care is no different than any other service. If you are able to increase the availability as well as lower the price it helps everyone. Including the poor.

davidw 18y ago

There's always going to be a cutoff point, though, where people are unprofitable. Introducing some market oriented reforms might improve things, but you simply can't get around the fact that in a purely profit-oriented system, some people are not worth the money it would cost to save their lives or reduce their suffering. There are plenty of products where the market drives prices down, but doesn't make them free or available to everyone, and in most cases that's just fine. Some people and some societies take the view that in some way or another, things like food, shelter, and yes, at least basic health care ought to be available to everyone, even if it is not profitable. That's "social engineering".

mmmurf 18y ago
True. I don't think anyone would object to helping the 1% of people who are actually in that category. The problem is that interest groups hijack the programs in order to win handouts for those who don't really need the programs.
- loumf 18y ago
  Where does this 1% come from? As a back of the envelope calculation, I would guess that almost all senior citizens are unprofitable to insure -- that's way more than 1%. Even if I'm off by a lot, it's still way more than 1% -- and I haven't addressed the rest of the population.
  - mmmurf 18y ago
    Only unprofitable if you decide that everyone deserves the latest, greatest, cutting-edge medical care. Healthcare prices have come way down in the past two decades, the issue is that nobody wants 1990 level care, which could be administered at a fraction of the price of delivering all of the latest advancements. The "healthcare costs are rising" meme is false. It's like saying "the price of supercomputers is rising". In non-inflation-adjusted dollars, the top-end supercomputer from IBM costs more than the top-end supercomputer from IBM cost 10 years ago, but the price per unit of computation has gone way down. Healthcare prices have done the same thing, but everyone wants the best possible at all times. (I want this too, but at least I try to appreciate that what I'm getting today is significantly better than 10 years ago)
  - DabAsteroid 18y ago
    unprofitable to insure It is not possible for someone to be unprofitable to insure. Why do you think it could be? If you are finding your bets unprofitable, try changing the amounts that you are betting.
- arockwell 18y ago
  Take a look at a list of what is considered an uninsurable condition for personal health insurance. That alone would hit more than 1% of the population.
  - mmmurf 18y ago
    Do you happen to have a list of these?
    - arockwell 18y ago
      I think it is state by state, but quite possibly varies from company to company. I found this list (which is similar to ones I've seen before), which is for Ohio: http://www.healthcarereform.ohio.gov/HCRDoc/RepresentativeListofUninsurableConditions.pdf http://www.healthcarereform.ohio.gov/HCRDoc/RepresentativeLi.... Some of the ones on the list are pretty shocking and many of them are hereditary.

gnaritas 18y ago

Health is very different from other services, profit should not be the goal. Business does not attempt to help people, but to maximize profit, which does not necessarily mean increasing availability or lowering prices at all. It might be more profitable to dump the lower income people and jack up the prices on those who can afford it. Unlike other industries, getting service is often a literal life or death issue, you have to pay or you might die; morally this makes health care very different from other industries.

jmtulloss 18y ago
I agree with you, but it's not that black and white. Insurance companies are usually the ones paying, not the individual. As such, they have a lot of control over the price (especially in the case of medicare). While it might be life or death for the individual, it's not for the insurance company.
- gnaritas 18y ago
  Which is a big part of the problem, we've put an entity between doctor and patient who's motive is profit rather than helping the patient. Insurance companies figured out a long time ago that the best way to profit was to deny claims and avoid paying in any way they can. An entire sub-industry has popped up around coding claims correctly because doctors have figured out what they can and can't get paid for, the effect being the insurance companies now basically dictate treatments rather than the doctor. Frankly it's extremely fucked up and it's caused entirely by companies seeing the most profit.
  - jmtulloss 18y ago
    Can't argue with that.
benl 18y ago
Profit is the world's way of signaling that you are doing something in an efficient, effective, and long-term sustainable way. So, given that health care is one of the most fundamental individual needs, profit most definitely should be the goal. But health care is not the most fundamental need -- that would be food. I find it puzzling that people don't apply the same arguement to this need. Why not say that profit shouldn't be the goal of the food industry? And that supermarkets are immoral for making a profit at the expense of hungry people? Well, because it's clearly nonsense, of course. But I wonder if it would seem like nonsense if we lived in a world where there was no free market in food supply. We might worry that greedy corporations would only be interested in serving expensive foods to rich people.