5 ms·

My company's general policy is to only hire junior devs. In fact not even "junior": after the founders, every one of us began here as high school interns, eithe

My company's general policy is to only hire junior devs. In fact not even "junior": after the founders, every one of us began here as high school interns, either juniors or seniors in HS. This has been immensely helpful in New Hampshire because talent is more sparse, and lots of good people would love to stay in NH if only there were jobs at graduation. It turns out plenty are willing to if they have an offer well ahead of time. This won't work for companies trying to blitz-scale everything, but I bet it would work for a lot more than the amount trying it. And it would especially work for companies located outside major metros. I wrote a bit about our process here: https://simonsarris.com/p/growing-software-developers https://simonsarris.com/p/growing-software-developers

bluGill 2y ago
that isn't good as you miss out on things outside your org as you become an echo chamber. There needs to be a mix ideally about 20% of those who retire from your org started there as a first job. Enough to prove retention matters, but not so much that you don't learn from elsewhere.
pylua 2y ago
You have to be careful with this. It could be discriminatory.
- dragonwriter 2y ago
  Every decision process is discriminatory, by definition. But it doesn't discriminate on a prohibited basis (the decision to only bring in developers as novice interns itself; if the way you are choosing interns does, sure, that's a problem, but its orthogonal to the issue), so that's not a problem.
  - Arainach 2y ago
    Age is in fact a protected class, and if their intent is to only hire high schoolers that would run afoul of the rules.
    - gamblor956 2y ago
      That is not in fact how age discrimination works and any lawsuit alleging such would be laughed out of court.
      - pylua 2y ago
        Not true. I believe there are on going cases here in the U.S.
        gamblor956 2y ago
        Cite one. Age discrimination is allowed within limits. It's even in the Constitution.
        Arainach 2y ago
        Things in the Constitution are not necessarily constitutional. It is unconstitutional to have representation determined by land, not population. The structure of the US Senate would be unconstitutional were it not written into the Constitution as an exception. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_v._Sims https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_v._Sims
        pylua 2y ago
        Exact sciences lawsuit.
        gamblor956 2y ago
        That lawsuit was settled for chump change (less than the salary the person suing would have made). This indicates that the settlement was based on legal costs associated with a fight the company would otherwise have won. Notably they did not change their hiring practices after the lawsuit....
  - pylua 2y ago
    There are some cases working their way through the system now. Can you prevent someone who is senior from taking a junior position? Have to see what the courts say.
- Carrok 2y ago
  Could be? It’s wild that they blog about their blatantly illegal hiring practices.
SoftTalker 2y ago
It used to be more common for companies to hire people with no coding experience into development roles, and then train them. In my first two jobs I saw that happen several times with good results. Even people with university CS programming experience will in reality have only learned a fraction of what's involved in writing and maintaining production code for a business.
doctorpangloss 2y ago
The thing you are describing is similar to something I do and I think it's a good idea. People who aspire to be good software developers start pretty young, just like with actors, musicians and athletes, and it's no surprise the commonality among 10x developers is very early programming experiences. But the words you used in your comment are so bad! Communications is your job! "Policy?" It's a recruiting strategy. Why on Earth did it occur to you to use the word "policy?" It's not a policy! "Only?" Not true. You mean that you've observed something works for you. Then you've one-armed-bandited it, and it kept working. Which is great! "Junior?" No dude, don't dump on your people. This is a talent development program. Nobody calls the Mickey Mouse Club "junior" actors. "New Hampshire because talent is more sparse:" Don't dump on New Hampshire, you live there. Try, "New Hampshire is an underrated community." "This won't work for companies trying to blitz-scale everything:" Nobody set up this straw man but you. "...outside major metros." Don't dump on your community! The miscommunication on "policy" alone got the high-drama people out of the woodwork and derailing an interesting comment thread.
laurex 2y ago
I work with a nonprofit that tries to bridge the gap between bootcamps and the so-called real world. There are so few companies that really understand how to nurture developers, and I am curious how AI will affect this. A lot of learning dev is not about coding, it's about thinking creatively and working with other humans.

bluGill 2y ago

that isn't good as you miss out on things outside your org as you become an echo chamber. There needs to be a mix ideally about 20% of those who retire from your org started there as a first job. Enough to prove retention matters, but not so much that you don't learn from elsewhere.

pylua 2y ago

You have to be careful with this. It could be discriminatory.

dragonwriter 2y ago
Every decision process is discriminatory, by definition. But it doesn't discriminate on a prohibited basis (the decision to only bring in developers as novice interns itself; if the way you are choosing interns does, sure, that's a problem, but its orthogonal to the issue), so that's not a problem.
- Arainach 2y ago
  Age is in fact a protected class, and if their intent is to only hire high schoolers that would run afoul of the rules.
  - gamblor956 2y ago
    That is not in fact how age discrimination works and any lawsuit alleging such would be laughed out of court.
    - pylua 2y ago
      Not true. I believe there are on going cases here in the U.S.
      - gamblor956 2y ago
        Cite one. Age discrimination is allowed within limits. It's even in the Constitution.
        Arainach 2y ago
        Things in the Constitution are not necessarily constitutional. It is unconstitutional to have representation determined by land, not population. The structure of the US Senate would be unconstitutional were it not written into the Constitution as an exception. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_v._Sims https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_v._Sims
        pylua 2y ago
        Exact sciences lawsuit.
        gamblor956 2y ago
        That lawsuit was settled for chump change (less than the salary the person suing would have made). This indicates that the settlement was based on legal costs associated with a fight the company would otherwise have won. Notably they did not change their hiring practices after the lawsuit....
- pylua 2y ago
  There are some cases working their way through the system now. Can you prevent someone who is senior from taking a junior position? Have to see what the courts say.
Carrok 2y ago
Could be? It’s wild that they blog about their blatantly illegal hiring practices.

SoftTalker 2y ago

It used to be more common for companies to hire people with no coding experience into development roles, and then train them. In my first two jobs I saw that happen several times with good results. Even people with university CS programming experience will in reality have only learned a fraction of what's involved in writing and maintaining production code for a business.

doctorpangloss 2y ago

The thing you are describing is similar to something I do and I think it's a good idea. People who aspire to be good software developers start pretty young, just like with actors, musicians and athletes, and it's no surprise the commonality among 10x developers is very early programming experiences. But the words you used in your comment are so bad! Communications is your job! "Policy?" It's a recruiting strategy. Why on Earth did it occur to you to use the word "policy?" It's not a policy! "Only?" Not true. You mean that you've observed something works for you. Then you've one-armed-bandited it, and it kept working. Which is great! "Junior?" No dude, don't dump on your people. This is a talent development program. Nobody calls the Mickey Mouse Club "junior" actors. "New Hampshire because talent is more sparse:" Don't dump on New Hampshire, you live there. Try, "New Hampshire is an underrated community." "This won't work for companies trying to blitz-scale everything:" Nobody set up this straw man but you. "...outside major metros." Don't dump on your community! The miscommunication on "policy" alone got the high-drama people out of the woodwork and derailing an interesting comment thread.

laurex 2y ago

I work with a nonprofit that tries to bridge the gap between bootcamps and the so-called real world. There are so few companies that really understand how to nurture developers, and I am curious how AI will affect this. A lot of learning dev is not about coding, it's about thinking creatively and working with other humans.