4 ms·

I daresay I'm in a minority of one, but I cannot abide Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah. In my opinion one of the most overrated songs in all of popular music.

noizejoy 2y ago
> In my opinion one of the most overrated songs in all of popular music. What is the other metric you're implying? Because "popular" is the only metric in your statement and if that's also the metric you imply with "overrated", then the statement doesn't seem to make much sense to me.
- bryanrasmussen 2y ago
  generally that song is rated on lyrical quality, so that's what I would expect.
- taylorius 2y ago
  I wasn't using the word popular as a metric - "popular music" is a fairly standard term, and is used as a category designator, to refer to music created by modern songwriters and/or bands, as opposed to say, classical music. I must say I find it slightly hard to believe that this isn't obvious - but I hope this explanation clarifies things.
  - noizejoy 2y ago
    You may think it's pedantic, but in this case it's a significant distinction. "popular music" != "pop music" The term "popular music" is an umbrella for music that has "wide appeal" and associated with "large audiences" [0] -- i.e. it's a statistical term. It can apply to many "genres" (that's the music industry term, rather than categories). One of those genres[1] is "pop music"[2]. And after your clarification, I now assume your OP actually meant "pop music". [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_music https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_music [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_genre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_genre [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_music https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_music
    - taylorius 2y ago
      I would question the distinctions significance in the context of my original post, to be honest. And I would not categorise Leonard Cohen as pop music, by your criterion, as it would not be useful. "Pop music" as a term used by the music industry changes it's definition along with people's musical taste. If you take the right moment in time, an extremely broad variety of music would be "pop music".
evanjrowley 2y ago
You're not alone. The lyrics tell a tale of hedonism, but because of the pretty melody and religious imagery, people somehow think it's uplifting? It's blasphemous and cursed according to the ideal that many mistakenly attribute the song to. I'm not saying people can't enjoy media that uses religious influences in ways contrary to their original purpose. My point is that a line gets crossed when the intent is to create something that's not respectful and people somehow misinterpret it as an endorsement.
- gjm11 2y ago
  Maybe I'm overoptimistic about people's intelligence, but my impression is that no one in the history of ever has thought the song is uplifting. There's a reason why it's been used so often in television and film to accompany heartbreak and tragedy and the like. (I don't really see "a tale of hedonism" in it, either. I mean, it has sex in it, for sure, but that's not the same thing. It's a song of damaged and broken relationships, not of consequence-free one-night stands.) [EDITED to add:] That last sentence is an oversimplification. There are lots of versions of the song, even if you consider only Cohen's own ones, with different balances between the religious and the sexual/romantic elements; the original 1984 version isn't "a song of damaged and broken relationships", or at least not only that. You could even, kinda-sorta, call it "uplifting". Later versions, Cohen's and others, not so much. But none of them, so far as I know, is a "tale of hedonism" in any useful sense.
  - smsm42 2y ago
    It is certainly not fun and happy song, but I would go as far as claim it is ultimately uplifting. After all it says "I'll stand before the lord of song with nothing on my tongue but hallelujah" - past all the suffering and brokenness the author is ultimately thankful for his lot. And in many philosophical traditions, including the Judaic one, the happy man is one who is satisfied with his lot.
  - agonz253 2y ago
    Whether a song is uplifting or not is completely subjective. Intelligence has nothing to do with it… Sometimes even a perfect expression of despair in a song can be uplifting to the listener, for many reasons. Whenever I’ve been at my lowest, for ex, the various versions of Dylan’s "Not Dark Yet" have always been a source of comfort.
jonstewart 2y ago
I hate it, too, find it embarrassingly maudlin, and am willing to extend the overrated label to Leonard Cohen. I like most every successor artist he’s influenced, but just because he was among the first black humored singer-songwriters doesn’t make him the most talented.
- klibertp 2y ago
  > singer-songwriters doesn’t make him the most talented. He's a poet. And a writer. He never claimed to be a singer, and songwriting always was a side job that earned money. If you want to know how talented Cohen was, read instead of trying to listen.
  - wisemang 2y ago
    He was born like that. He had no choice. He was born with the gift of a golden voice. (Reference to his Tower of Song — and I can hear the wink as he calls his voice golden.)

noizejoy 2y ago

> In my opinion one of the most overrated songs in all of popular music. What is the other metric you're implying? Because "popular" is the only metric in your statement and if that's also the metric you imply with "overrated", then the statement doesn't seem to make much sense to me.

bryanrasmussen 2y ago
generally that song is rated on lyrical quality, so that's what I would expect.
taylorius 2y ago
I wasn't using the word popular as a metric - "popular music" is a fairly standard term, and is used as a category designator, to refer to music created by modern songwriters and/or bands, as opposed to say, classical music. I must say I find it slightly hard to believe that this isn't obvious - but I hope this explanation clarifies things.
- noizejoy 2y ago
  You may think it's pedantic, but in this case it's a significant distinction. "popular music" != "pop music" The term "popular music" is an umbrella for music that has "wide appeal" and associated with "large audiences" [0] -- i.e. it's a statistical term. It can apply to many "genres" (that's the music industry term, rather than categories). One of those genres[1] is "pop music"[2]. And after your clarification, I now assume your OP actually meant "pop music". [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_music https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_music [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_genre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_genre [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_music https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pop_music
  - taylorius 2y ago
    I would question the distinctions significance in the context of my original post, to be honest. And I would not categorise Leonard Cohen as pop music, by your criterion, as it would not be useful. "Pop music" as a term used by the music industry changes it's definition along with people's musical taste. If you take the right moment in time, an extremely broad variety of music would be "pop music".

evanjrowley 2y ago

You're not alone. The lyrics tell a tale of hedonism, but because of the pretty melody and religious imagery, people somehow think it's uplifting? It's blasphemous and cursed according to the ideal that many mistakenly attribute the song to. I'm not saying people can't enjoy media that uses religious influences in ways contrary to their original purpose. My point is that a line gets crossed when the intent is to create something that's not respectful and people somehow misinterpret it as an endorsement.

gjm11 2y ago
Maybe I'm overoptimistic about people's intelligence, but my impression is that no one in the history of ever has thought the song is uplifting. There's a reason why it's been used so often in television and film to accompany heartbreak and tragedy and the like. (I don't really see "a tale of hedonism" in it, either. I mean, it has sex in it, for sure, but that's not the same thing. It's a song of damaged and broken relationships, not of consequence-free one-night stands.) [EDITED to add:] That last sentence is an oversimplification. There are lots of versions of the song, even if you consider only Cohen's own ones, with different balances between the religious and the sexual/romantic elements; the original 1984 version isn't "a song of damaged and broken relationships", or at least not only that. You could even, kinda-sorta, call it "uplifting". Later versions, Cohen's and others, not so much. But none of them, so far as I know, is a "tale of hedonism" in any useful sense.
- smsm42 2y ago
  It is certainly not fun and happy song, but I would go as far as claim it is ultimately uplifting. After all it says "I'll stand before the lord of song with nothing on my tongue but hallelujah" - past all the suffering and brokenness the author is ultimately thankful for his lot. And in many philosophical traditions, including the Judaic one, the happy man is one who is satisfied with his lot.
- agonz253 2y ago
  Whether a song is uplifting or not is completely subjective. Intelligence has nothing to do with it… Sometimes even a perfect expression of despair in a song can be uplifting to the listener, for many reasons. Whenever I’ve been at my lowest, for ex, the various versions of Dylan’s "Not Dark Yet" have always been a source of comfort.

jonstewart 2y ago

I hate it, too, find it embarrassingly maudlin, and am willing to extend the overrated label to Leonard Cohen. I like most every successor artist he’s influenced, but just because he was among the first black humored singer-songwriters doesn’t make him the most talented.

klibertp 2y ago
> singer-songwriters doesn’t make him the most talented. He's a poet. And a writer. He never claimed to be a singer, and songwriting always was a side job that earned money. If you want to know how talented Cohen was, read instead of trying to listen.
- wisemang 2y ago
  He was born like that. He had no choice. He was born with the gift of a golden voice. (Reference to his Tower of Song — and I can hear the wink as he calls his voice golden.)