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https://curmudgucation.blogspot.com/2023/07/no-zero-grading-and-mystery-of.html https://curmudgucation.blogspot.com/2023/07/no-zero-grading-... > There are ple

https://curmudgucation.blogspot.com/2023/07/no-zero-grading-and-mystery-of.html https://curmudgucation.blogspot.com/2023/07/no-zero-grading-... > There are plenty of lessons to be learned from this story. One is the dangers of teaching in a state with few job protections and deliberately weakened unions for teachers. Another is to beware of these sorts of viral stories, because maybe there were other reasons she was let go and maybe the school doesn't actually have a no zeros policy. > But even though the story is five years old, it still has legs because no-zero grading is reliably click-generating and button-pushing. For some folks it just rings the fuzzy-headed liberal bell. Your uncle who bitches about participation trophies also hates no-zero grading. ... > I know most of the arguments from the years we debated a no-zero policy in my district. We had switched from a letter grade system for nine weeks grades to a 100-point scale, and shortly after, the district created a policy that no student could receive a grade lower than 50% in the first grading periods of a course. > There was nothing nice or progressive about it. It was practical matter of teacher preservation. ... > Under a letter grade system, with averaging math based on a four point scale (A=4, B=3, C=2, D=1 and F=0), an F was not a grading catastrophe. But with a 100 point scale...well, imagine a worst case scenario. With 70% the lowest passing score (as it was for many years), a student needs to hit 280 total for the year. If the student pulls a 0 in the first nine weeks, that student needs to hit the low nineties in the remaining three quarters. > Again, the no-zero policy was not about the student's tender feelings or vulnerable ego. It was about the problem of spending 135 days with a teenager in your classroom who knows he cannot possibly pass your class, that his failure is already written in stone, and so has A) no reason to try and B) nothing to lose. A no-zero policy is not doing the student a favor; it is giving the classroom teacher one more chance to hold onto one more piece of leverage for just a little bit longer.

Jensson 2y ago
Then why have 0 to 100 if the lowest is 50? That just artificially inflates the perceived result, someone getting 50% makes me assume he passed 50% of the things. Sounds like the system is just stupid overall.
- Wowfunhappy 2y ago
  If you were studying to be a doctor and you couldn't answer 50% of the questions on each test, it doesn't really matter that you got the other half of the questions right, you're still not qualified to be a doctor. Maybe that's an overly contrived example, but it gets to the basic idea. There is a certain minimum threshold needed to pass the class, and if you can't meet that, the degree to which you failed is irrelevant.
  - eesmith 2y ago
    Why are you presenting an irrelevant example? Med students are adults, voluntarily studying for a profession. This teacher - who seemingly lied about the reason she was fired as the district does not have the policy she claimed it does - was teaching eighth graders who are required by law to attend school, and where the state as an interest in them getting a good basic education. Furthermore, 'on each test' is far different from 'one test', and the claim concerned a homework assignment. Furthermore, med schools tweak their grades, like "U Pitt: Fail is 2 standard deviations below the mean" - https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/which-med-schools-grade-students-based-on-a-curve.5755/ https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/which-med-schools-g... and the MCAT is graded on a curve ("The MCAT is graded on a curve where 500 is the average for all four sections of the exam with scores ranging from 472 to 528.") Grading on a curve means that if a student could only answer 45% of the questions on each test, while the other students could only answer 40%, then the 45% student definitely passes. It also means that someone who gets 95% right could fail. If someone gets a 0 because they couldn't be there for the test, but were otherwise a competent C student, then should that one missed test doom the student to a D grade? (75 + 75 + 75 + 75 + 75 + 75 + 75 + 75 + 75 + 75 + 75 + 0) / 12 -> 68.75 which is a D+ and not a C. Is that pattern really the sign of a D student?
- eesmith 2y ago
  I dunno. But start with the part at the beginning of what I quoted - is the story true? From https://www.ksat.com/news/2018/09/26/district-blasts-fired-teacher-says-there-is-more-to-story/ https://www.ksat.com/news/2018/09/26/district-blasts-fired-t... . > She wrote a note to her students on her final day on her classroom whiteboard that reads: > “Bye kids. Mrs. Tirado loves you and wishes you the best in life! I have been fired for refusing to give you a 50 percent for not handing anything in. Mrs. Tirado.” > KSAT reached out to the school district, and a spokesperson responded saying, in part: > "Ms. Tirado was released from her duties as an instructor because her performance was deemed sub-standard and her interactions with students, staff, and parents lacked professionalism and created a toxic culture on the school’s campus. > During her brief time of employment at West Gate, the school fielded numerous student and parent complaints as well as concerns from colleagues. Based on new information shared with school administrators, an investigation of possible physical abuse is underway." > The spokesperson also mentioned the schools grading policy, stating that there isn’t any policy prohibiting a teacher from recording a zero for work not turned in. You write "someone getting 50% makes me assume he passed 50% of the things" but surely you know that's not the way things work. Some of my teachers had a policy to drop the lowest score before computing the GPA. That doesn't fit your view. Many of my teachers had a way to get extra credit. That doesn't fit your view. Teachers don't have perfect calibration either. In one test I got 40% right, which was the highest score in the class.

Jensson 2y ago

Then why have 0 to 100 if the lowest is 50? That just artificially inflates the perceived result, someone getting 50% makes me assume he passed 50% of the things. Sounds like the system is just stupid overall.

Wowfunhappy 2y ago
If you were studying to be a doctor and you couldn't answer 50% of the questions on each test, it doesn't really matter that you got the other half of the questions right, you're still not qualified to be a doctor. Maybe that's an overly contrived example, but it gets to the basic idea. There is a certain minimum threshold needed to pass the class, and if you can't meet that, the degree to which you failed is irrelevant.
- eesmith 2y ago
  Why are you presenting an irrelevant example? Med students are adults, voluntarily studying for a profession. This teacher - who seemingly lied about the reason she was fired as the district does not have the policy she claimed it does - was teaching eighth graders who are required by law to attend school, and where the state as an interest in them getting a good basic education. Furthermore, 'on each test' is far different from 'one test', and the claim concerned a homework assignment. Furthermore, med schools tweak their grades, like "U Pitt: Fail is 2 standard deviations below the mean" - https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/which-med-schools-grade-students-based-on-a-curve.5755/ https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/which-med-schools-g... and the MCAT is graded on a curve ("The MCAT is graded on a curve where 500 is the average for all four sections of the exam with scores ranging from 472 to 528.") Grading on a curve means that if a student could only answer 45% of the questions on each test, while the other students could only answer 40%, then the 45% student definitely passes. It also means that someone who gets 95% right could fail. If someone gets a 0 because they couldn't be there for the test, but were otherwise a competent C student, then should that one missed test doom the student to a D grade? (75 + 75 + 75 + 75 + 75 + 75 + 75 + 75 + 75 + 75 + 75 + 0) / 12 -> 68.75 which is a D+ and not a C. Is that pattern really the sign of a D student?
eesmith 2y ago
I dunno. But start with the part at the beginning of what I quoted - is the story true? From https://www.ksat.com/news/2018/09/26/district-blasts-fired-teacher-says-there-is-more-to-story/ https://www.ksat.com/news/2018/09/26/district-blasts-fired-t... . > She wrote a note to her students on her final day on her classroom whiteboard that reads: > “Bye kids. Mrs. Tirado loves you and wishes you the best in life! I have been fired for refusing to give you a 50 percent for not handing anything in. Mrs. Tirado.” > KSAT reached out to the school district, and a spokesperson responded saying, in part: > "Ms. Tirado was released from her duties as an instructor because her performance was deemed sub-standard and her interactions with students, staff, and parents lacked professionalism and created a toxic culture on the school’s campus. > During her brief time of employment at West Gate, the school fielded numerous student and parent complaints as well as concerns from colleagues. Based on new information shared with school administrators, an investigation of possible physical abuse is underway." > The spokesperson also mentioned the schools grading policy, stating that there isn’t any policy prohibiting a teacher from recording a zero for work not turned in. You write "someone getting 50% makes me assume he passed 50% of the things" but surely you know that's not the way things work. Some of my teachers had a policy to drop the lowest score before computing the GPA. That doesn't fit your view. Many of my teachers had a way to get extra credit. That doesn't fit your view. Teachers don't have perfect calibration either. In one test I got 40% right, which was the highest score in the class.