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I think the claim that Buckley's version of Hallelujah is better than Cohen's (even the initial 1984 version) is controversial, at minimum :-) The observations

I think the claim that Buckley's version of Hallelujah is better than Cohen's (even the initial 1984 version) is controversial, at minimum :-) The observations about obscurity are good ones, however -- A Confederacy of Dunces is a fantastic book, and it's hard to say how many other fantastic works of music, literature, &c. are lost in closets and old laptop hard drives. But I think it's not as much about genius as the author seems to think: given that we don't actually know the denominator under "known great works to unknown great ones," it seems equally plausible to me that "genius" is not the rare or distinguishing thing we always treat it as.

kwhitefoot 2y ago
Buckley's version is trash in my opinion. I've just listened to the official video on YourTube. I had to give up halfway through and switch to Leonard Cohen's version Live in London. Cohen sings it like it matters, like it's a matter of life and death. Moved me to tears. The gatekeepers have a lot to answer for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrLk4vdY28Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrLk4vdY28Q
- worik 2y ago
  In matters of taste there is no right an wrong Only good an bad
  - khazhoux 2y ago
    I always say: there’s no dumb questions, only questions asked by dumb people.
- StayTrue 2y ago
  Seems like an extreme take. I think Buckley’s version is sublime but love Cohen’s too (which I’ve been privileged to enjoy live on a couple occasions).
  - Lerc 2y ago
    I think this is the 'It's either 5-stars or 1-star' principle in action. I feel given a different context they might say that both both renditions are good but one speaks to them on a more personal level. I'm guessing this comes about as a desire to be heard causing a magnification of the opinion rather than the force of the opinion. If you feel like nobody takes notice of your moderate opinion one might feel like a expressing stronger opinion in the same direction might increase the impact.
    - lern_too_spel 2y ago
      I also just don't care for Buckley's cover, and it's not a "not quite as good as the other one" feeling but a "not good" impression, so I can see where GGP is coming from. Buckley needlessly draws out the song. I own both Cohen's track from Various Positions and Buckley's cover from Grace, which Google gave away for free to try to convince people to use its music store. I don't listen to the latter. Even if I didn't have the former, I still wouldn't listen to the latter. That's just how I feel about it, and I understand that other people feel differently.
- Quekid5 2y ago
  Your opinion is just that. An opinion. (I'll leave it at that)
- acchow 2y ago
  I think it's a matter of taste. I just watched your link and it seems performative to me. I imagine a video from one of his earliest performances would have come off as authentic. But decades later, does he really even feel the same way as when he wrote it?
  - slfnflctd 2y ago
    As someone who has performed a number of songs (some of which I wrote) over several decades, and has played one cover song in particular at least several hundred times... every performance is unique. It is a different experience for the performer than for the audience. As an audience member, I get tired of any particular song very quickly. As a performer, it often feels like a new challenge each time. One night I can struggle to feel anything at all and it's like I'm phoning it in. The next afternoon I can come away from a spontaneous run-through of the same piece and feel like I've found new insights and played it better than ever before. That being said, while I recognize it's somewhat subjective, I vastly prefer Jeff Buckley's version of this song over all others. Maybe because I fell in love with that whole Grace album at a pivotal point in my life. If I'm going to pick a song I feel like Cohen fully owns, it's gotta be Everybody Knows.
- emmelaich 2y ago
  One thing I really like about Buckley's version is that he says "But you don't really care for music, do you?" Not "do ya", which really jars with the rest of the song.
  - stavros 2y ago
    That's what Cohen does in that video as well, and I personally dislike it.
- kdtsh 2y ago
  It’s apples and oranges comparing a studio recording to a live performance. Anyway, I think this is a similar divide to the performances of ‘Hurt’ by Nine Inch Nails and Johnny Cash. People come to each with their own preconceptions and their own taste, and ultimately both tracks explore different ground and express different things through the same composition. It is all a matter of taste; for what it’s worth, I think no one has to think something is good, but I have a lot of time for people whose sense of taste lets them explore the ground that the artist tries to take them to and understand the artist on their level, whether they think one particular performance is better or worse than another by some metric.
  - bigmattystyles 2y ago
    I think even Trent Reznor said it was Johnny Cash’s song now.
    - duskwuff 2y ago
      He did. https://web.archive.org/web/20171015203101/http://www.theninhotline.net/archives/articles/manager/display_article.php?id=11 https://web.archive.org/web/20171015203101/http://www.thenin...
  - OskarS 2y ago
    One of my favorite Cash songs is The Mercy Seat, I just think it’s a masterpiece. And it’s SO Johnny Cash (religion! crime! last line twist!) that I was stunned when I recently looked it up and realized he didn’t write it, it’s a cover of a Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds song. The Nick Cave version is… fine? I mean, it’s good! But the Johnny Cash version is sublime, there’s no comparison. Must have been a weird feeling for an artist to hear Johnny Cash is covering your song. On the one hand, he’s a legend who inspired you and who you worship, but also it has to be a bit of “oh shit, his version is going to be so much better than mine, isn’t it? Well, I guess it’s Johnny’s song now. ”
    - keybored 2y ago
      > Must have been a weird feeling for an artist to hear Johnny Cash is covering your song. On the one hand, he’s a legend who inspired you and who you worship, but also it has to be a bit of “oh shit, his version is going to be so much better than mine, isn’t it? Well, I guess it’s Johnny’s song now. ” Pff. Based on monthly listeners on Spotify Johnny Cash is bigger than both Nice Cave and Nine Inch Nails. So what kind of position do you put artists who are both less known and younger in when you cover their songs? Well factoring in respect and professionalism: deference is a likely outcome. “It’s his song now!” Ridiculous. “Hurt” by Nine Inch Nails is fine I guess. “Hurt” by Cash is just an old man voice over a steel string guitar. Very monotone and dull. I heard it way before I heard the NiN version (naturally) and I never understood why people were taken by it. Another example is “My Body is a Cage” by Arcade Fire. Peter Gabriel did a similarly boring cover: flat vocals (compare with the AF vocals reaching for the higher notes) over a dun-dun-dun piano which builds into a orchestral backing. I guess the instrumentation is comparable but the vocals are just okay. But the vocals are supposedly the wow-factor for such artists. But AF has done at least one Peter Gabriel cover. So it goes both ways.
rendx 2y ago
I like Daniel Kahn's version. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH1fERC_504 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH1fERC_504
- woodruffw 2y ago
  עס איז אַ גוט ליד :-)
  - Saturnial22 2y ago
    [flagged]
shagie 2y ago
At one point in my music library, I not-quite-dated a woman who's fond of the song ... and I picked up a few versions of it in my music library. There was also a version playing on KFOG at the time. One of the things that interesting to me about them is that John Cale did a cover of the Cohen song ... and then everyone else covers Cale's version. I think that Rufus Wainright's version is the closest to Cale's and The Rubes have a version that is more piano. In a quick scan through iTunes, I haven't found any (yet) that use Cohen's lyrical arrangement rather than Cale's selection. (edit) Matthew Schuler appears to be a proper Cohen cover (complete with the female backup voices on the Hallelujah choruses over organ). It has the "Lord of Song" verse, but it didn't have the "holy or the broken Hallelujah" verse. The Canadian Tenors also have a composition that appears to draw from the Cohen rather than the Cale arrangement. Tori Kelly's cover has all the verses that I recognize from Cohen's version.
- atombender 2y ago
  This is a major point made by the article. Cohen needed Cale to be his "editor", someone that could beat it into shape. Without Cale's "editing", we probably would not have all the covers today. The article then contrasts this process to what happens an author is unlucky and is faced with an editor who stands in the way of the author's vision rather than becoming a catalyst for it.
  - klabetron 2y ago
    What was it about Cale’s version that Jeff Buckley latched on to that he wouldn’t have had he come across Cohen’s version while cat sitting for a friend? Do we know? I don’t think the author explains (if there even is an explanation). But really great read nonetheless.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - browningstreet 2y ago
      Search for “MALCOLM GLADWELL Revisionist History Hallelujah”. He does a whole show on the topic, and covers the major different versions.
paul7986 2y ago
Best version I personally ever heard is K.D. LANG's on an Australian tv show. She soars at the end. https://youtu.be/ikdLBQACC74?si=C2NJaQ1r7vUoKpOJ https://youtu.be/ikdLBQACC74?si=C2NJaQ1r7vUoKpOJ Think her versions were Cohen's favorite.
edanm 2y ago
My favorite version is 3Blue1Brown's math parody version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOCsdhzo6Jg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOCsdhzo6Jg :) Seriously though, I'm actually a huge Buckley fan and prefer his version to Leonard Cohen's, though I'm also a big Leonard Cohen fan.
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stavros 2y ago
Why do people mention Confederacy of Dunces here? I'm not sure how it relates to the song.
- jessekv 2y ago
  The article uses both the song and the book to support a broader observation about the path of art from obscurity into popular culture.
- napoleoncomplex 2y ago
  Half of the linked article is about the story behind Confederacy of Dunces.
jebarker 2y ago
> the claim that Buckley's version of Hallelujah is better than Cohen's (even the initial 1984 version) is controversial, at minimum :-) It is controversial, but shouldn't be. Not because Buckley's version _is_ better, but because arguing over whose taste in music is better is obnoxious.

kwhitefoot 2y ago

Buckley's version is trash in my opinion. I've just listened to the official video on YourTube. I had to give up halfway through and switch to Leonard Cohen's version Live in London. Cohen sings it like it matters, like it's a matter of life and death. Moved me to tears. The gatekeepers have a lot to answer for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrLk4vdY28Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrLk4vdY28Q

worik 2y ago
In matters of taste there is no right an wrong Only good an bad
- khazhoux 2y ago
  I always say: there’s no dumb questions, only questions asked by dumb people.
StayTrue 2y ago
Seems like an extreme take. I think Buckley’s version is sublime but love Cohen’s too (which I’ve been privileged to enjoy live on a couple occasions).
- Lerc 2y ago
  I think this is the 'It's either 5-stars or 1-star' principle in action. I feel given a different context they might say that both both renditions are good but one speaks to them on a more personal level. I'm guessing this comes about as a desire to be heard causing a magnification of the opinion rather than the force of the opinion. If you feel like nobody takes notice of your moderate opinion one might feel like a expressing stronger opinion in the same direction might increase the impact.
  - lern_too_spel 2y ago
    I also just don't care for Buckley's cover, and it's not a "not quite as good as the other one" feeling but a "not good" impression, so I can see where GGP is coming from. Buckley needlessly draws out the song. I own both Cohen's track from Various Positions and Buckley's cover from Grace, which Google gave away for free to try to convince people to use its music store. I don't listen to the latter. Even if I didn't have the former, I still wouldn't listen to the latter. That's just how I feel about it, and I understand that other people feel differently.
Quekid5 2y ago
Your opinion is just that. An opinion. (I'll leave it at that)
acchow 2y ago
I think it's a matter of taste. I just watched your link and it seems performative to me. I imagine a video from one of his earliest performances would have come off as authentic. But decades later, does he really even feel the same way as when he wrote it?
- slfnflctd 2y ago
  As someone who has performed a number of songs (some of which I wrote) over several decades, and has played one cover song in particular at least several hundred times... every performance is unique. It is a different experience for the performer than for the audience. As an audience member, I get tired of any particular song very quickly. As a performer, it often feels like a new challenge each time. One night I can struggle to feel anything at all and it's like I'm phoning it in. The next afternoon I can come away from a spontaneous run-through of the same piece and feel like I've found new insights and played it better than ever before. That being said, while I recognize it's somewhat subjective, I vastly prefer Jeff Buckley's version of this song over all others. Maybe because I fell in love with that whole Grace album at a pivotal point in my life. If I'm going to pick a song I feel like Cohen fully owns, it's gotta be Everybody Knows.
emmelaich 2y ago
One thing I really like about Buckley's version is that he says "But you don't really care for music, do you?" Not "do ya", which really jars with the rest of the song.
- stavros 2y ago
  That's what Cohen does in that video as well, and I personally dislike it.
kdtsh 2y ago
It’s apples and oranges comparing a studio recording to a live performance. Anyway, I think this is a similar divide to the performances of ‘Hurt’ by Nine Inch Nails and Johnny Cash. People come to each with their own preconceptions and their own taste, and ultimately both tracks explore different ground and express different things through the same composition. It is all a matter of taste; for what it’s worth, I think no one has to think something is good, but I have a lot of time for people whose sense of taste lets them explore the ground that the artist tries to take them to and understand the artist on their level, whether they think one particular performance is better or worse than another by some metric.
- bigmattystyles 2y ago
  I think even Trent Reznor said it was Johnny Cash’s song now.
  - duskwuff 2y ago
    He did. https://web.archive.org/web/20171015203101/http://www.theninhotline.net/archives/articles/manager/display_article.php?id=11 https://web.archive.org/web/20171015203101/http://www.thenin...
- OskarS 2y ago
  One of my favorite Cash songs is The Mercy Seat, I just think it’s a masterpiece. And it’s SO Johnny Cash (religion! crime! last line twist!) that I was stunned when I recently looked it up and realized he didn’t write it, it’s a cover of a Nick Cave & The Bad Seeds song. The Nick Cave version is… fine? I mean, it’s good! But the Johnny Cash version is sublime, there’s no comparison. Must have been a weird feeling for an artist to hear Johnny Cash is covering your song. On the one hand, he’s a legend who inspired you and who you worship, but also it has to be a bit of “oh shit, his version is going to be so much better than mine, isn’t it? Well, I guess it’s Johnny’s song now. ”
  - keybored 2y ago
    > Must have been a weird feeling for an artist to hear Johnny Cash is covering your song. On the one hand, he’s a legend who inspired you and who you worship, but also it has to be a bit of “oh shit, his version is going to be so much better than mine, isn’t it? Well, I guess it’s Johnny’s song now. ” Pff. Based on monthly listeners on Spotify Johnny Cash is bigger than both Nice Cave and Nine Inch Nails. So what kind of position do you put artists who are both less known and younger in when you cover their songs? Well factoring in respect and professionalism: deference is a likely outcome. “It’s his song now!” Ridiculous. “Hurt” by Nine Inch Nails is fine I guess. “Hurt” by Cash is just an old man voice over a steel string guitar. Very monotone and dull. I heard it way before I heard the NiN version (naturally) and I never understood why people were taken by it. Another example is “My Body is a Cage” by Arcade Fire. Peter Gabriel did a similarly boring cover: flat vocals (compare with the AF vocals reaching for the higher notes) over a dun-dun-dun piano which builds into a orchestral backing. I guess the instrumentation is comparable but the vocals are just okay. But the vocals are supposedly the wow-factor for such artists. But AF has done at least one Peter Gabriel cover. So it goes both ways.

rendx 2y ago

I like Daniel Kahn's version. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH1fERC_504 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH1fERC_504

woodruffw 2y ago
עס איז אַ גוט ליד :-)
- Saturnial22 2y ago
  [flagged]

shagie 2y ago

At one point in my music library, I not-quite-dated a woman who's fond of the song ... and I picked up a few versions of it in my music library. There was also a version playing on KFOG at the time. One of the things that interesting to me about them is that John Cale did a cover of the Cohen song ... and then everyone else covers Cale's version. I think that Rufus Wainright's version is the closest to Cale's and The Rubes have a version that is more piano. In a quick scan through iTunes, I haven't found any (yet) that use Cohen's lyrical arrangement rather than Cale's selection. (edit) Matthew Schuler appears to be a proper Cohen cover (complete with the female backup voices on the Hallelujah choruses over organ). It has the "Lord of Song" verse, but it didn't have the "holy or the broken Hallelujah" verse. The Canadian Tenors also have a composition that appears to draw from the Cohen rather than the Cale arrangement. Tori Kelly's cover has all the verses that I recognize from Cohen's version.

atombender 2y ago
This is a major point made by the article. Cohen needed Cale to be his "editor", someone that could beat it into shape. Without Cale's "editing", we probably would not have all the covers today. The article then contrasts this process to what happens an author is unlucky and is faced with an editor who stands in the way of the author's vision rather than becoming a catalyst for it.
- klabetron 2y ago
  What was it about Cale’s version that Jeff Buckley latched on to that he wouldn’t have had he come across Cohen’s version while cat sitting for a friend? Do we know? I don’t think the author explains (if there even is an explanation). But really great read nonetheless.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - browningstreet 2y ago
    Search for “MALCOLM GLADWELL Revisionist History Hallelujah”. He does a whole show on the topic, and covers the major different versions.

paul7986 2y ago

Best version I personally ever heard is K.D. LANG's on an Australian tv show. She soars at the end. https://youtu.be/ikdLBQACC74?si=C2NJaQ1r7vUoKpOJ https://youtu.be/ikdLBQACC74?si=C2NJaQ1r7vUoKpOJ Think her versions were Cohen's favorite.

edanm 2y ago

My favorite version is 3Blue1Brown's math parody version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOCsdhzo6Jg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOCsdhzo6Jg :) Seriously though, I'm actually a huge Buckley fan and prefer his version to Leonard Cohen's, though I'm also a big Leonard Cohen fan.

deleted 2y ago

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deleted 2y ago

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stavros 2y ago

Why do people mention Confederacy of Dunces here? I'm not sure how it relates to the song.

jessekv 2y ago
The article uses both the song and the book to support a broader observation about the path of art from obscurity into popular culture.
napoleoncomplex 2y ago
Half of the linked article is about the story behind Confederacy of Dunces.

jebarker 2y ago

> the claim that Buckley's version of Hallelujah is better than Cohen's (even the initial 1984 version) is controversial, at minimum :-) It is controversial, but shouldn't be. Not because Buckley's version _is_ better, but because arguing over whose taste in music is better is obnoxious.