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"Real democracies" is hypothetical like "Real Communism". In the Real World democracy means voice of the majority. So, if majority believes abortion should be i

• JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  Sparta and Carthage had elected governments. Hell, Imperial Rome had electeds. Elections are a prerequisite for democracy, not a proof of one.
  • cdogl 2y ago
    Without universal suffrage I think the comparison between modern democracies and these examples is apples and oranges. The voters in Rome and Sparta were a small elite, so their “democracy” is more like a novel form of power sharing in an otherwise bog standard system.
    • JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > Without universal suffrage I think the comparison between modern democracies and these examples is apples and oranges Universal suffrage is an ideal entirely reliant on how the denominator is defined. Delineating the polity (i.e., polis) is an institution in democratic exercise--we traditionally punt this question to that of citizenship.
      • BlueTemplar 2y ago
        Yes, but I think everyone agrees that non-adults shouldn't be allowed to vote (being dependent on their parents), while if a country has too big of a chunk of its adult population without the right to vote (think if Quatar was a democracy, because citizenship is so restricted there), it would not count as "universal suffrage" ? (On the opposite, you have countries where you can vote in local elections even if you do NOT have citizenship.)
        • JumpCrisscross 2y ago
          > but I think everyone agrees Of course we do. Because it’s convention. But not everyone within a border geometry is a citizen. And why a border geometry is what it is usually relies on other questions.