4 ms·

Failures of capitalism that probably need regulation. If the middle class and workers are to be protected.

01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
Would UBI and LVT do the trick? I'm okay with minimum wages on the idea that a democratic government is the biggest possible de facto labor union, but in general I don't want the government making too many rules about how you can hire and fire people
WalterBright 2y ago
The city of Seattle decided that gig delivery drivers needed to be protected. They passed a minimum wage for them. The income of gig drivers promptly dropped, as the rise in prices corresponded with a drop in customers. Who regulates the regulators?
- malfist 2y ago
  You need a citation for that claim. And something more than just "the week after this went into effect it reduced sale volume" And besides, what's the alternative here? Don't protect employees? Let them work below minimum wage?
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    https://mustreadalaska.com/labor-day-cautionary-tale-for-gig-workers-how-seattle-crashed-its-food-delivery-industry/ https://mustreadalaska.com/labor-day-cautionary-tale-for-gig...
    - malfist 2y ago
      Leaving aside the relevance of an Alaskan newspaper talking about local Seattle politics, their only source is a news article from Seattle written the week of the law taking effect. As I said in my original comment, show me something that isn't from the first couple of weeks after it took effect. Preferably something scholarly, not just anecdotes from a newspaper
      - WalterBright 2y ago
        If you go to news.google.com, and type in "seattle gig worker law" and you'll find plenty of articles about it.
- djbusby 2y ago
  Why did the prices for Uber/Lyft rise everywhere else too? It wasn't Seattle laws that did that. It's that those companies needed to go from Growth-Mode to Margin-Mode. They could no longer sell VC dollars for dimes.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    Yes, it was the Seattle laws that did it locally. The food delivery gig drivers were not Uber/Lyft.
  - gruez 2y ago
    >Why did the prices for Uber/Lyft rise everywhere else too? Presumably it rose in Seattle higher/faster than it would otherwise. The source that he provided in a sibling comment says sales dropped "immediately", which seems to corroborate this. It's lazy to argue "well prices rose elsewhere too so the minimum wage law couldn't possibly have had an impact"
    - djbusby 2y ago
      Well, I don't think I'm lazy. IIRC prices were already moving up and the rent-a-car-apps were exiting. And Uber/Lyft were very far on funding, needing some margin. And then there was this other trigger event of worker pay. Which is a nice corporate spin opportunity. And we've seen that pattern 100s of times (blaming workers for price increase).
- bumby 2y ago
  >Who regulates the regulators? In a healthy democracy, the civic-minded voters do.
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    That doesn't work out very well. The voters are too far removed from it, and the instruments the voters have are far too blunt.
    - bumby 2y ago
      That’s why i said “healthy” and “civic-minded.” I think there’s some truth to the saying “You get the government you deserve” It still seems to be better than all the alternatives.
- makk 2y ago
  > Who regulates the regulators? The voters and their representatives, if they put their minds to it.
numpad0 2y ago
Yeah this after all. Private corporations exist to make money. They minimize investment and maximize returns. They progressively suppress wages and inflate profits. Clever individual choices and self discounts merely create temporary competitive advantages against other poor laborers in the market. If you manage to secure the bag that way and exit that class altogether, good for you, but that solves nothing for the rest. There's no be all end all threshold that everyone can just stay above and stay ahead of inflation.
gruez 2y ago
What would this mean in practice? Forcing companies to justify layoffs? Mandating minimum amount of people in frontend/backend/devops/operations/security roles?

Would UBI and LVT do the trick? I'm okay with minimum wages on the idea that a democratic government is the biggest possible de facto labor union, but in general I don't want the government making too many rules about how you can hire and fire people

WalterBright 2y ago

The city of Seattle decided that gig delivery drivers needed to be protected. They passed a minimum wage for them. The income of gig drivers promptly dropped, as the rise in prices corresponded with a drop in customers. Who regulates the regulators?

malfist 2y ago
You need a citation for that claim. And something more than just "the week after this went into effect it reduced sale volume" And besides, what's the alternative here? Don't protect employees? Let them work below minimum wage?
- WalterBright 2y ago
  https://mustreadalaska.com/labor-day-cautionary-tale-for-gig-workers-how-seattle-crashed-its-food-delivery-industry/ https://mustreadalaska.com/labor-day-cautionary-tale-for-gig...
  - malfist 2y ago
    Leaving aside the relevance of an Alaskan newspaper talking about local Seattle politics, their only source is a news article from Seattle written the week of the law taking effect. As I said in my original comment, show me something that isn't from the first couple of weeks after it took effect. Preferably something scholarly, not just anecdotes from a newspaper
    - WalterBright 2y ago
      If you go to news.google.com, and type in "seattle gig worker law" and you'll find plenty of articles about it.
djbusby 2y ago
Why did the prices for Uber/Lyft rise everywhere else too? It wasn't Seattle laws that did that. It's that those companies needed to go from Growth-Mode to Margin-Mode. They could no longer sell VC dollars for dimes.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  Yes, it was the Seattle laws that did it locally. The food delivery gig drivers were not Uber/Lyft.
- gruez 2y ago
  >Why did the prices for Uber/Lyft rise everywhere else too? Presumably it rose in Seattle higher/faster than it would otherwise. The source that he provided in a sibling comment says sales dropped "immediately", which seems to corroborate this. It's lazy to argue "well prices rose elsewhere too so the minimum wage law couldn't possibly have had an impact"
  - djbusby 2y ago
    Well, I don't think I'm lazy. IIRC prices were already moving up and the rent-a-car-apps were exiting. And Uber/Lyft were very far on funding, needing some margin. And then there was this other trigger event of worker pay. Which is a nice corporate spin opportunity. And we've seen that pattern 100s of times (blaming workers for price increase).
bumby 2y ago
>Who regulates the regulators? In a healthy democracy, the civic-minded voters do.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  That doesn't work out very well. The voters are too far removed from it, and the instruments the voters have are far too blunt.
  - bumby 2y ago
    That’s why i said “healthy” and “civic-minded.” I think there’s some truth to the saying “You get the government you deserve” It still seems to be better than all the alternatives.
makk 2y ago
> Who regulates the regulators? The voters and their representatives, if they put their minds to it.

numpad0 2y ago

Yeah this after all. Private corporations exist to make money. They minimize investment and maximize returns. They progressively suppress wages and inflate profits. Clever individual choices and self discounts merely create temporary competitive advantages against other poor laborers in the market. If you manage to secure the bag that way and exit that class altogether, good for you, but that solves nothing for the rest. There's no be all end all threshold that everyone can just stay above and stay ahead of inflation.

gruez 2y ago

What would this mean in practice? Forcing companies to justify layoffs? Mandating minimum amount of people in frontend/backend/devops/operations/security roles?