5 ms·

They're realizing that 10x (+) developers exist, but think they can hire them at 1x developer salaries. Btw, they key skill you're leaving out, is to understan

They're realizing that 10x (+) developers exist, but think they can hire them at 1x developer salaries. Btw, they key skill you're leaving out, is to understand the business your company is in. If you can couple even moderate developer ability with a good understanding of business objectives, you may stay relevant even while some of the pure developers are replaced by AI.

swader999 2y ago
This 100%. It's rare to find anyone that wants to learn a complex biz domain.
- extr 2y ago
  It's because it's often a suboptimal career move from an individual perspective. By branding yourself as a "FinTech Developer" or whatever instead of just a "Developer" you're narrowing your possible job options for questionable benefit in terms of TC and skills growth. This isn't always the case and of course if you spend 20 years in one domain maybe you can brand yourself as an expert there and pull high $/hr consulting rates for fixing people's problems. Maybe. More likely IMO you end up stagnating. I went through this myself early in my career. I did ML at insurance companies and got branded as an insurance ML guy. Insurance companies don't pay that well and there are a limited number of them. After I got out of that lane and got some name-brand tech experience under my belt, job hunting was much easier and my options opened up. I make a lot more money. And I can always go back if I really want to.
  - trashtester 2y ago
    > I did ML at insurance companies and got branded as an insurance ML guy. If you're an "ML insurance guy" outside of the US, it may be quite lucrative compared to other developers. It's really only in the US (and maybe China) that pure developers are demanding $200k+ salaries. In most places in Europe, even $100k is considered a high salary, and if you can provide value directly to the business, it will add a lot to your potential compensation. And in particular, if your skills are more about the business than the tech/math of your domain, you probably want to leverage that, rather than trying to compete with 25-year-olds with a strong STEM background, but poor real-life experience.
    - matrix2003 2y ago
      > In most places in Europe, even $100k is considered a high salary I think it's worth adding here that US developers can have a much higher burden for things like health insurance. My child broke his arm this year, and we hit our very high deductible. I would like to see numbers factoring in things like public transportation, health insurance, etc., because I personally feel like EU vs US developers are a lot closer in quality of life after all the deductions.
      - ghaff 2y ago
        I'm skeptical. I live in a location that wouldn't have public transportation even in Europe. And my healthcare, while not "free," was never expensive outside of fairly small co-pays and a monthly deduction that wasn't cheap but was in the hundreds per month range. Of course, there are high deductible policies but that's a financial choice.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - nextos 2y ago
        I would also like to see those numbers. IMHO, the biggest difference comes from housing cost. For example, from my own back-of-the-envelope calculations, a £100k Oxbridge job affords a better lifestyle than a $180k NY job mostly because of housing. However, some US areas have competitively priced housing and jobs that would make the balance tilt in favor of America. In EU, affordable spots with lots of desirable local jobs are becoming increasingly rare. Perhaps Vienna, Wrocław and a few other places in Central/Eastern EU.
        pas 2y ago
        what are typical Oxbridge jobs? Are they really in Oxford and Cambridge? if yes, then ... NYC vs not-London UK seems like almost incomparable.
        nextos 2y ago
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    > got branded as an insurance ML guy I got branded as a compiler guy. My salary is $0.
    - PaulHoule 2y ago
      I’ve never gotten avaricious small town business types to believe that the cheap thing to do if the proprietary language you spent a lot to buy is EOL is hire some interns from your local Uni who took a compilers class to write an implementation or translator for $0.00 and some good experiences although… it’s true.
      - WalterBright 2y ago
        Taking a college level compiler class will get you a toy compiler.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        PaulHoule 2y ago
        Not the best but something that seems impossible to the small town businessman.
- sevensor 2y ago
  Funny, my world is full of the other kind of engineer. We all come with domain knowledge built in, and programming is the complex domain many people don’t want to learn.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    I've worked in higher ed. Many of the masters students I see want the credential but they have no desire to write code. Copying and plagarism are rampant.
    - sevensor 2y ago
      Which is short sighted, because if they’re on the other side of the interview table from me it takes about 60 seconds to find them out. Competence speaks a different language than fraud.
- llm_trw 2y ago
  Pay me enough and I'll suck up everything about municipal waste management that any human being has ever said. Pay me 'market rates' and you'll get the type of work the market produces.
- hnthrow289570 2y ago
  Why would you, 1) Learn a complex skill like software development (which now includes devops stuff), 2) learn a complex business domain, and 3) get paid for only doing one? Pay up. Pay up. Pay up. That's why!
neom 2y ago
Biz side of the house here: for sure, it's always been the way that really what you're "weeding in" is the IC's who are skilled and aware. (and:If I had to do layoffs, my stack rank would be smack dab in here also, btw)
intelVISA 2y ago
> If you can couple even moderate developer ability with a good understanding of business objectives, you may stay relevant even while some of the pure developers are replaced by AI. By 'stay relevant' you mean run your own? Ability to build + align to business objectives = $$$, no reason to be an Agile cog at that point.
- YawningAngel 2y ago
  I know plenty about IAM and card issuance, but I don't back myself to compete with Ping or Marqeta

swader999 2y ago

This 100%. It's rare to find anyone that wants to learn a complex biz domain.

extr 2y ago
It's because it's often a suboptimal career move from an individual perspective. By branding yourself as a "FinTech Developer" or whatever instead of just a "Developer" you're narrowing your possible job options for questionable benefit in terms of TC and skills growth. This isn't always the case and of course if you spend 20 years in one domain maybe you can brand yourself as an expert there and pull high $/hr consulting rates for fixing people's problems. Maybe. More likely IMO you end up stagnating. I went through this myself early in my career. I did ML at insurance companies and got branded as an insurance ML guy. Insurance companies don't pay that well and there are a limited number of them. After I got out of that lane and got some name-brand tech experience under my belt, job hunting was much easier and my options opened up. I make a lot more money. And I can always go back if I really want to.
- trashtester 2y ago
  > I did ML at insurance companies and got branded as an insurance ML guy. If you're an "ML insurance guy" outside of the US, it may be quite lucrative compared to other developers. It's really only in the US (and maybe China) that pure developers are demanding $200k+ salaries. In most places in Europe, even $100k is considered a high salary, and if you can provide value directly to the business, it will add a lot to your potential compensation. And in particular, if your skills are more about the business than the tech/math of your domain, you probably want to leverage that, rather than trying to compete with 25-year-olds with a strong STEM background, but poor real-life experience.
  - matrix2003 2y ago
    > In most places in Europe, even $100k is considered a high salary I think it's worth adding here that US developers can have a much higher burden for things like health insurance. My child broke his arm this year, and we hit our very high deductible. I would like to see numbers factoring in things like public transportation, health insurance, etc., because I personally feel like EU vs US developers are a lot closer in quality of life after all the deductions.
    - ghaff 2y ago
      I'm skeptical. I live in a location that wouldn't have public transportation even in Europe. And my healthcare, while not "free," was never expensive outside of fairly small co-pays and a monthly deduction that wasn't cheap but was in the hundreds per month range. Of course, there are high deductible policies but that's a financial choice.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - nextos 2y ago
      I would also like to see those numbers. IMHO, the biggest difference comes from housing cost. For example, from my own back-of-the-envelope calculations, a £100k Oxbridge job affords a better lifestyle than a $180k NY job mostly because of housing. However, some US areas have competitively priced housing and jobs that would make the balance tilt in favor of America. In EU, affordable spots with lots of desirable local jobs are becoming increasingly rare. Perhaps Vienna, Wrocław and a few other places in Central/Eastern EU.
      - pas 2y ago
        what are typical Oxbridge jobs? Are they really in Oxford and Cambridge? if yes, then ... NYC vs not-London UK seems like almost incomparable.
        nextos 2y ago
- WalterBright 2y ago
  > got branded as an insurance ML guy I got branded as a compiler guy. My salary is $0.
  - PaulHoule 2y ago
    I’ve never gotten avaricious small town business types to believe that the cheap thing to do if the proprietary language you spent a lot to buy is EOL is hire some interns from your local Uni who took a compilers class to write an implementation or translator for $0.00 and some good experiences although… it’s true.
    - WalterBright 2y ago
      Taking a college level compiler class will get you a toy compiler.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - PaulHoule 2y ago
        Not the best but something that seems impossible to the small town businessman.
sevensor 2y ago
Funny, my world is full of the other kind of engineer. We all come with domain knowledge built in, and programming is the complex domain many people don’t want to learn.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  I've worked in higher ed. Many of the masters students I see want the credential but they have no desire to write code. Copying and plagarism are rampant.
  - sevensor 2y ago
    Which is short sighted, because if they’re on the other side of the interview table from me it takes about 60 seconds to find them out. Competence speaks a different language than fraud.
llm_trw 2y ago
Pay me enough and I'll suck up everything about municipal waste management that any human being has ever said. Pay me 'market rates' and you'll get the type of work the market produces.
hnthrow289570 2y ago
Why would you, 1) Learn a complex skill like software development (which now includes devops stuff), 2) learn a complex business domain, and 3) get paid for only doing one? Pay up. Pay up. Pay up. That's why!

neom 2y ago

Biz side of the house here: for sure, it's always been the way that really what you're "weeding in" is the IC's who are skilled and aware. (and:If I had to do layoffs, my stack rank would be smack dab in here also, btw)

intelVISA 2y ago

> If you can couple even moderate developer ability with a good understanding of business objectives, you may stay relevant even while some of the pure developers are replaced by AI. By 'stay relevant' you mean run your own? Ability to build + align to business objectives = $$$, no reason to be an Agile cog at that point.

YawningAngel 2y ago
I know plenty about IAM and card issuance, but I don't back myself to compete with Ping or Marqeta