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Your personal observations are not borne out by the polling data (nor by my own interactions), which shows much more sympathy for Russia in East Germany than in

Your personal observations are not borne out by the polling data (nor by my own interactions), which shows much more sympathy for Russia in East Germany than in the West, as well as a desire for better relations (even after Russia's invasion of Ukraine in 2022). I have also never heard anyone in East Germany complain about what Russian (Soviet, actually - there were more than just Russians in the USSR and Red Army) troops did at the end of WW2. People are aware of the fact that Nazi Germany was the aggressor, that it carried out completely incomparable crimes on Soviet soil, and that the Soviets liberated them from the Nazi regime. 1953 is a different issue entirely.

mopsi 2y ago
> I have also never heard anyone in East Germany complain about what Russian (Soviet, actually - there were more than just Russians in the USSR and Red Army) troops did at the end of WW2. Then you have a huge blind spot. I'll let a man who was there describe it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ywe5pFT928 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ywe5pFT928 In total, between 1 and 2 million people were raped in Germany in the final months of the war. Not only German civilians, but everyone from Polish forced laborers to concentration camp prisoners. These stories are everywhere in personal histories. Helmut Kohl's wife, for example, sustained life-long injuries after she was gang-raped and thrown out of a window when she was 12. The Soviet war memorial in Berlin was known by locals as the tomb of unknown rapist. Victims couldn't even speak about what had been done to them, because the glorious communist dictatorship brought along by the liberators denied for half a century that any of this ever happened. And it deserves a mention that people in Europe are subjected to this kind of "liberation" to this day: https://x.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1820831971573973385 https://x.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1820831971573973385 The way social media campaigns fan up emotions and make people ignore all this just shows the incredible potency of social media as a tool of mass manipulation.
- DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
  I don't know who you're talking to, but having spent a good deal of time in East Berlin, I have never heard anyone refer to the Soviet war memorial that way. Putting "liberation" from the Nazis in scare quotes does, however, betray some highly questionable historical attitudes. Are you really going to deny that the people of East Germany were liberated from the Nazi regime? Do you know what would have happened to concentration camp prisoners and Polish forced laborers if the Red Army had not defeated the Wehrmacht?
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    I have never heard anyone refer to the Soviet war memorial that way. Well yeah, because one almost never refers to it anyway (except for conveying directions). Are you really going to deny that the people of East Germany were liberated from the Nazi regime? You're playing word games here -- specifically by raising a false pretense. Of course the end of the NS-regime is universally seen as a liberation, in mainstream. The above commenter wasn't suggesting otherwise, and it is disingenuous to imply that they were, or would. The point is simply that -- the fact that these folks are happy to have been liberated (on the whole) doesn't mean that they consider the SED regime and all the other circumstances imposed upon them after 1945 to have been a necessary part of this "liberation". Or that positive feelings toward the liberation translate directly to positive feelings toward the respective occupiers.
aguaviva 2y ago
It's not about the data; it's about the context. Which I know very well because I know these people and their history very, very well. Enough to tell (right away) that you're bending words and implications around and saying well, some pretty weird things. Like this for example: I have also never heard anyone in East Germany complain about what Russian (Soviet, actually - there were more than just Russians in the USSR and Red Army) troops did at the end of WW2. First off as to "sympathy for Russia". It's very clear that folks in the East lean towards different view of what to do in Ukraine, in regard to Germany's Umgang mit Rußland on the whole, and to what you call the "desire for better relations" with same. One doesn't even have to go looking for polls to see that -- it jumps right out of last week's voting results. But that doesn't translate into intrinsic sympathy for Russia as a country. It's not like they dislike Russia specifically, and a certain segment of society does view the country warmly (independent of current events). But by and large, Russia (as a country) is definitely not loved across the board, and for precisely the reasons I mentioned. . As to people "complaining" -- I mean yeah, it's not like any of the events at the end of the war or in '53 are anything anyone would personally "complain" to you about. No one "complains" about the Wall anymore of course, but that doesn't mean that people have fond feelings about it, on the whole (though again, a certain social segment does of course). The overwhelming feeling toward it is of course overwhelmingly negative (to anyone with a brain), despite the fact that no one "complains" about it any more. Nonetheless these events (both the mass rapes and '53) absolutely are a valid and robust issues in the societal discourse. Not talked about every day of course, but the record of these events very much shapes people's views of their historical neighbor. They've been extensively written about, talked about on TV, poignant documentaries have been made, there've been exhibits specifically about these events and their legacy ohne Ende. Both topics are still very much seen as quite relevant and still touch a lot of nerves. (As if the situation could be otherwise, given that there were 900,000 victims as far as the program of mass rapes is concerned, and 1953 was but a forerunner to the trauma of 1961 that affected virtually everyone). And in short, the folks (in both East and West) take the positions they do in regard to guten Beziehungen zu Rußland and similar topics, and some of them lean towards parties like the AfD/BSW due to a whole host of factors -- but not because, as you untenably put it, the population is "much more friendly to Russia" per se. Because they quite obviously aren't. And then you went on to say a few more weird things: People are aware of the fact that Nazi Germany was the aggressor, that it carried out completely incomparable crimes on Soviet soil No one said or even remotely implied that they were not or had forgotten. I'm genuinely puzzled as to what point you might be hoping to make by making this statement. That the Soviets liberated them from the Nazi regime. Yeah, they know the operational chronology of the war of course. That doesn't mean they simply see the Soviets as "liberators", at least not without some pretty hefty qualifications. So dumm sind sie nicht. (Also a good chunk of the population, including entire cities such as Leipzig, were in fact liberated by the US/UK directly and then handed over to the Soviets sometime later -- they haven't forgotten that either). 1953 is a different issue entirely. "Different" yes of course, but nonetheless inextricably linked. As it (along with the mass rapes, and their experience with the SED regime generally) gets to the heart of the matter of why the Soviets are definitely not seen as simply "liberators" in these parts.

mopsi 2y ago

> I have also never heard anyone in East Germany complain about what Russian (Soviet, actually - there were more than just Russians in the USSR and Red Army) troops did at the end of WW2. Then you have a huge blind spot. I'll let a man who was there describe it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ywe5pFT928 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ywe5pFT928 In total, between 1 and 2 million people were raped in Germany in the final months of the war. Not only German civilians, but everyone from Polish forced laborers to concentration camp prisoners. These stories are everywhere in personal histories. Helmut Kohl's wife, for example, sustained life-long injuries after she was gang-raped and thrown out of a window when she was 12. The Soviet war memorial in Berlin was known by locals as the tomb of unknown rapist. Victims couldn't even speak about what had been done to them, because the glorious communist dictatorship brought along by the liberators denied for half a century that any of this ever happened. And it deserves a mention that people in Europe are subjected to this kind of "liberation" to this day: https://x.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1820831971573973385 https://x.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1820831971573973385 The way social media campaigns fan up emotions and make people ignore all this just shows the incredible potency of social media as a tool of mass manipulation.

DiogenesKynikos 2y ago
I don't know who you're talking to, but having spent a good deal of time in East Berlin, I have never heard anyone refer to the Soviet war memorial that way. Putting "liberation" from the Nazis in scare quotes does, however, betray some highly questionable historical attitudes. Are you really going to deny that the people of East Germany were liberated from the Nazi regime? Do you know what would have happened to concentration camp prisoners and Polish forced laborers if the Red Army had not defeated the Wehrmacht?
- aguaviva 2y ago
  I have never heard anyone refer to the Soviet war memorial that way. Well yeah, because one almost never refers to it anyway (except for conveying directions). Are you really going to deny that the people of East Germany were liberated from the Nazi regime? You're playing word games here -- specifically by raising a false pretense. Of course the end of the NS-regime is universally seen as a liberation, in mainstream. The above commenter wasn't suggesting otherwise, and it is disingenuous to imply that they were, or would. The point is simply that -- the fact that these folks are happy to have been liberated (on the whole) doesn't mean that they consider the SED regime and all the other circumstances imposed upon them after 1945 to have been a necessary part of this "liberation". Or that positive feelings toward the liberation translate directly to positive feelings toward the respective occupiers.

aguaviva 2y ago

It's not about the data; it's about the context. Which I know very well because I know these people and their history very, very well. Enough to tell (right away) that you're bending words and implications around and saying well, some pretty weird things. Like this for example: I have also never heard anyone in East Germany complain about what Russian (Soviet, actually - there were more than just Russians in the USSR and Red Army) troops did at the end of WW2. First off as to "sympathy for Russia". It's very clear that folks in the East lean towards different view of what to do in Ukraine, in regard to Germany's Umgang mit Rußland on the whole, and to what you call the "desire for better relations" with same. One doesn't even have to go looking for polls to see that -- it jumps right out of last week's voting results. But that doesn't translate into intrinsic sympathy for Russia as a country. It's not like they dislike Russia specifically, and a certain segment of society does view the country warmly (independent of current events). But by and large, Russia (as a country) is definitely not loved across the board, and for precisely the reasons I mentioned. . As to people "complaining" -- I mean yeah, it's not like any of the events at the end of the war or in '53 are anything anyone would personally "complain" to you about. No one "complains" about the Wall anymore of course, but that doesn't mean that people have fond feelings about it, on the whole (though again, a certain social segment does of course). The overwhelming feeling toward it is of course overwhelmingly negative (to anyone with a brain), despite the fact that no one "complains" about it any more. Nonetheless these events (both the mass rapes and '53) absolutely are a valid and robust issues in the societal discourse. Not talked about every day of course, but the record of these events very much shapes people's views of their historical neighbor. They've been extensively written about, talked about on TV, poignant documentaries have been made, there've been exhibits specifically about these events and their legacy ohne Ende. Both topics are still very much seen as quite relevant and still touch a lot of nerves. (As if the situation could be otherwise, given that there were 900,000 victims as far as the program of mass rapes is concerned, and 1953 was but a forerunner to the trauma of 1961 that affected virtually everyone). And in short, the folks (in both East and West) take the positions they do in regard to guten Beziehungen zu Rußland and similar topics, and some of them lean towards parties like the AfD/BSW due to a whole host of factors -- but not because, as you untenably put it, the population is "much more friendly to Russia" per se. Because they quite obviously aren't. And then you went on to say a few more weird things: People are aware of the fact that Nazi Germany was the aggressor, that it carried out completely incomparable crimes on Soviet soil No one said or even remotely implied that they were not or had forgotten. I'm genuinely puzzled as to what point you might be hoping to make by making this statement. That the Soviets liberated them from the Nazi regime. Yeah, they know the operational chronology of the war of course. That doesn't mean they simply see the Soviets as "liberators", at least not without some pretty hefty qualifications. So dumm sind sie nicht. (Also a good chunk of the population, including entire cities such as Leipzig, were in fact liberated by the US/UK directly and then handed over to the Soviets sometime later -- they haven't forgotten that either). 1953 is a different issue entirely. "Different" yes of course, but nonetheless inextricably linked. As it (along with the mass rapes, and their experience with the SED regime generally) gets to the heart of the matter of why the Soviets are definitely not seen as simply "liberators" in these parts.