5 ms·

New Title - Advanced Python: Just Program in C

by assanineass 2y ago

pjmlp 2y ago
Advanced Python - Rediscovering Common Lisp.
- adtezrh 2y ago
  Ad-hoc, informally specified and bug-ridden (Greenspun's tenth rule applies very much to Python). I'm not criticizing the article, which humorously draws Dr.Strangelove analogies to these techniques. What I don't understand is that this sort thing has been popular for over 20 years in the Python space.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    At least some are doing numeric research right. "Common Lisp using LLVM and C++ for Molecular Metaprogramming" https://sungsoo.github.io/2015/06/17/clap.html https://sungsoo.github.io/2015/06/17/clap.html
- PaulHoule 2y ago
  A while back I concluded that you could code up most of the examples from https://www.amazon.com/Paradigms-Artificial-Intelligence-Programming-Studies/dp/1558601910/ https://www.amazon.com/Paradigms-Artificial-Intelligence-Pro... in Python without doing anything too out of the ordinary. I just finished https://www.amazon.com/Lisp-Advanced-Techniques-Common/dp/0130305529/ https://www.amazon.com/Lisp-Advanced-Techniques-Common/dp/01... and came to almost the same conclusion in that most of the macro use in that book is in the syntactic sugar or performance optimization category. If I didn't have a lot of projects in the queue and people demanding my time I'd try coding up the ATN and Prolog examples in Python (sorta kinda did the "CLOS" example in that I built a strange kind of meta-object facility that made "objects" backed by RDF triples) In Java I did enough hacking on this project https://github.com/paulhoule/ferocity/blob/main/ferocity0/src/test/java/com/ontology2/ferocity/TestUrFierce.java https://github.com/paulhoule/ferocity/blob/main/ferocity0/sr... to conclude I could create something that people who think "Java Sux" and "Common Lisp Sux" would really hate. If I went forward on that it would be to try "code golf not counting POM file size" by dividing ferocity into layers (like that ferocity0 which is enough to write a code generator that can stub the whole stdlib) so I could use metaprogramming to fight back against the bulkification you get from writing Java as typed S-expressions. (I'm pretty sure type erasure can be dealt with if you aren't interested in JDK 10+ features like var and switch expressions, on the other hand a system like that doesn't have to be able to code generate syntactic sugar sorts of structures because ferocity is all about being able to write syntatic sugar)
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    With the difference that Python code runs slow as molasses.
    - PaulHoule 2y ago
      I've had very good luck with PyPy speeding up branchy "old AI" code. Some days I wonder if the popularity of Lisp around MIT was really an attempt to stick Noam Chomsky for biting the hand that feeds them.
      - pjmlp 2y ago
        The black Swan of Python ecosystem.
      - medo-bear 2y ago
        Interesting comment, what does Noam Chomsky have to do with Lisp?
        PaulHoule 2y ago
        Almost every other programming language uses parsing technology related to Chomsky’s generative grammars, Lisp is the conspicuous exception.
        kazinator 2y ago
        Don't forget that Chomksy probably spent a vast amount of time inserting labeled brackets into lists of words to show their syntax! And it wasn't his choice or fault that they are aren't there.
bmitc 2y ago
You can go to several dozen of languages from Python to get better and far more easier performance without having to go to C. C can have performance, but you have to pay with it.
- bmitc 2y ago
  * pay for it

New Title - Advanced Python: Just Program in C

pjmlp 2y ago

Advanced Python - Rediscovering Common Lisp.

adtezrh 2y ago
Ad-hoc, informally specified and bug-ridden (Greenspun's tenth rule applies very much to Python). I'm not criticizing the article, which humorously draws Dr.Strangelove analogies to these techniques. What I don't understand is that this sort thing has been popular for over 20 years in the Python space.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  At least some are doing numeric research right. "Common Lisp using LLVM and C++ for Molecular Metaprogramming" https://sungsoo.github.io/2015/06/17/clap.html https://sungsoo.github.io/2015/06/17/clap.html
PaulHoule 2y ago
A while back I concluded that you could code up most of the examples from https://www.amazon.com/Paradigms-Artificial-Intelligence-Programming-Studies/dp/1558601910/ https://www.amazon.com/Paradigms-Artificial-Intelligence-Pro... in Python without doing anything too out of the ordinary. I just finished https://www.amazon.com/Lisp-Advanced-Techniques-Common/dp/0130305529/ https://www.amazon.com/Lisp-Advanced-Techniques-Common/dp/01... and came to almost the same conclusion in that most of the macro use in that book is in the syntactic sugar or performance optimization category. If I didn't have a lot of projects in the queue and people demanding my time I'd try coding up the ATN and Prolog examples in Python (sorta kinda did the "CLOS" example in that I built a strange kind of meta-object facility that made "objects" backed by RDF triples) In Java I did enough hacking on this project https://github.com/paulhoule/ferocity/blob/main/ferocity0/src/test/java/com/ontology2/ferocity/TestUrFierce.java https://github.com/paulhoule/ferocity/blob/main/ferocity0/sr... to conclude I could create something that people who think "Java Sux" and "Common Lisp Sux" would really hate. If I went forward on that it would be to try "code golf not counting POM file size" by dividing ferocity into layers (like that ferocity0 which is enough to write a code generator that can stub the whole stdlib) so I could use metaprogramming to fight back against the bulkification you get from writing Java as typed S-expressions. (I'm pretty sure type erasure can be dealt with if you aren't interested in JDK 10+ features like var and switch expressions, on the other hand a system like that doesn't have to be able to code generate syntactic sugar sorts of structures because ferocity is all about being able to write syntatic sugar)
- pjmlp 2y ago
  With the difference that Python code runs slow as molasses.
  - PaulHoule 2y ago
    I've had very good luck with PyPy speeding up branchy "old AI" code. Some days I wonder if the popularity of Lisp around MIT was really an attempt to stick Noam Chomsky for biting the hand that feeds them.
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      The black Swan of Python ecosystem.
    - medo-bear 2y ago
      Interesting comment, what does Noam Chomsky have to do with Lisp?
      - PaulHoule 2y ago
        Almost every other programming language uses parsing technology related to Chomsky’s generative grammars, Lisp is the conspicuous exception.
        kazinator 2y ago
        Don't forget that Chomksy probably spent a vast amount of time inserting labeled brackets into lists of words to show their syntax! And it wasn't his choice or fault that they are aren't there.

bmitc 2y ago

You can go to several dozen of languages from Python to get better and far more easier performance without having to go to C. C can have performance, but you have to pay with it.

bmitc 2y ago
* pay for it