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> Also, I've personally seen more interest in AI in devs that have little interest in technology, but a big interest in delivering. Thank you, this says what I

> Also, I've personally seen more interest in AI in devs that have little interest in technology, but a big interest in delivering. Thank you, this says what I have been struggling to describe. The day I lost part of my soul was when I asked a dev if I could give them feedback on a DB schema, they said yes, and then cut me off a few minutes in with, “yeah, I don’t really care [about X].” You don’t care? I’m telling you as the SME for this exactly what can be improved, how to do it, and why you should do so, but you don’t care. Cool. Cloud was a mistake; it’s inculcated people with the idea that chasing efficiency and optimization doesn’t matter, because you can always scale up or out. I’m not even talking about doing micro-benchmarks (though you should…), I’m talking about dead-simple stuff like “maybe use this data structure instead of that one.”

dartos 2y ago
I’ve noticed this more and more since 2020. A lot of people who entered the field in the past 6 or so years are here for the money, obviously. Nothing wrong with that at all, but as someone with a long time programming and technology passion, it’s sad to see that change.
- sgarland 2y ago
  There’s certainly nothing wrong with enjoying the high pay, no – I definitely do. But yeah, it’s upsetting to find out how few people care. Even moreso when they double down and say that you shouldn’t care either, because it’s been abstracted away, blah blah blah. Who do you think is going to continue creating these abstractions for you?
  - ebiester 2y ago
    ...Someone else who thinks of actual web applications as an abstraction. In the olden days, we used to throw it over to "Ops" and say, "your problem now." And Junior developers have always been overwhelmed with the details and under pressure to deliver enough to keep their job. None of this is new! I'm a graybeard now, but I remember seniors having the same complaints back then. "Kids these days" never gets old.
    - conductr 2y ago
      I get what you’re saying, but at the same time I feel like I encounter the real world results of this erosion constantly. While we have more software than ever, it all just kind of feels janky these days. I encounter errors in places I never had before, doing simple things. The other day I was doing a simple copy and paste operation (it was some basic csv formatted text from vs code to excel iirc) and I encountered a Windows (not excel or vs code) error prompt that my clipboard data had been lost in the time it took me to Alt+Tab and Ctrl+v, something I’ve been doing ~daily for 3 decades without any issues. I’m more of a solo full stack dev and don’t really have first hand experience building software at scale and the process it takes to manage a codebase the size of the Windows OS, but these are the kinds of issues I see regularly these days and wouldn’t in the past. I also use macOS daily for almost as long and the Apple software has really tanked in terms of quality, I hit bugs and unexpected errors regularly. I generally don’t use their software (Safari, Mail, etc) when I can avoid it. Also have to admit lack of features is a big issue for me on their software.
  - bumby 2y ago
    I get the pragmatism argument, but I would like to think certain professions should hold themselves to a higher standard. Doctors, lawyers, and engineers have a duty to society IMO that runs counter to a “just mail it in to cash a paycheck” mentality. I guess it comes down to whether you consider software developers to be that same kind of engineer. Certainly I don’t want safety critical software engineers to have that cavalier attitude (although I’ve seen it).
- choilive 2y ago
  Its been a while since my undergrad (>10 yrs) but many of my peers were majoring in CS or EE/CE because of the money, at the time I thought it was a bit depressing as well. With a few more years under my belt I realized theres nothing wrong with doing good work and providing yourself/your family a decent living. Not everyone needs the passion in their field to become among the best or become a "10x"er to contribute. We all have different passions, but we all need to pay the bills.
  - neilv 2y ago
    Yeah, I think that the quality of work (skill + conscientiousness), and the motivation for doing the work, are two separate things. Off-the-cuff, three groups: 1. There are people who are motivated by having a solid income, yet they take the professionalism seriously, and do skilled rock-solid work, 9-5. I'd be happy to work with these people. 2. There are other people who are motivated by having a solid or more-than-solid income, and (regardless of skill level), it's non-stop sprint performance art, gaming promotion metrics, resume-driven development, practicing Leetcode, and hopping at the next opportunity regardless of where that leaves the project and team. 3. Then there's those weirdos who are motivated by something about the work itself, and would be doing it even if it didn't pay well. Over the years, these people spend so much time and energy on the something, that they tend to develop more and stronger skills than the others. I'd be happy to work with these people, so long as they can also be professional (including rolling up sleeves for the non-fun parts), or amenable to learning to be professional. Half-joke: The potential of group #3 is threatening to sharp-elbowed group #2, so group #2 neutralizes them via frat gatekeeping tactics (yeah-but-what-school-did-you-go-to snobbery, Leetcode shibboleth for nothing but whether you rehearsed Leetcode rituals, cliques, culture fit, etc.). Startups might do well to have a mix of #3 and #1, and to stay far away from #2. But startups -- especially the last decade-plus of too many growth investment scams -- are often run by affluent people who grew up being taught #2 skills (for how you game your way into prestigious school, aggressively self-interested networking and promoting yourself, etc.).
    - dartos 2y ago
      I’m in group 3 for sure. The hardest part of any job I’ve had is doing the not so fun parts (meetings, keeping up with emails, solidly finishing work before moving on to something new)
- jayd16 2y ago
  Maybe a lack of learned healthy shame from people joining the industry during the covid hiring spree.
carlmr 2y ago
>Cloud was a mistake; it’s inculcated people with the idea that chasing efficiency and optimization doesn’t matter, because you can always scale up or out. Similarly Docker is an amazing technology, yet it enabled the dependency tower of babels that we have today. It enabled developers that don't care about cleaning up their depencies. Kubernetes is amazing technology, yet it enabled the developers that don't care to ship applications that constantly crash, but who cares, kubernetes will automatically restart everything. Cloud and now AI are similar enabler technologies. They could be used for good, but there are too many people that just don't care.
- shadowgovt 2y ago
  The fine art of industry is building more and more elaborate complicated systems atop things someone deeply cares about to be used by those who don't have to deeply care. How many developers do we imagine even know the difference between SIMD and SISD operators, much less whether their software stack knows how to take advantage of SIMD? How many developers do we imagine even know how RAM chips store bits or how a semiconductor works? We're just watching the bar of "Don't need to care because a reliable system exists" move through something we know and care about in our lifetimes. Progress is great to watch in action.
  - blibble 2y ago
    > How many developers do we imagine even know the difference between SIMD and SISD operators, much less whether their software stack knows how to take advantage of SIMD? How many developers do we imagine even know how RAM chips store bits or how a semiconductor works? hopefully some of those that did a computer science degree? (all of what you've said was part of mine)
    - shadowgovt 2y ago
      Globally, only 41% of software developers even have a bachelor's degree.
  - mistrial9 2y ago
dboreham 2y ago
[flagged]
jcgrillo 2y ago
In a similar vein, some days I feel like a human link generator into e.g. postgres or kafka documentation. When docs are that clear, refined, and just damn good but it seems like nobody is willing to actually read them closely enough to "get it" it's just a very depressing and demotivating experience. If I could never again have to explain what a transaction isolation level is or why calling kafka a "queue" makes no sense at all I'd probably live an extra decade. At the root of it, there's a profound arrogance in putting someone else in a position where they are compelled to tell you you're wrong[1]. Curious, careful people don't do this very often because they are aware of the limits of their knowledge and when they don't know something they go find it out. Unfortunately this is surprisingly rare. [1] to be clear, I'm speaking here as someone who has been guilty of this before, now regrets it, and hopes to never do it again.
- sgarland 2y ago
  I've taken to asking if people have read docs (and linking them to the correct page). So far it hasn't changed anything. Unfortunate.
- kragen 2y ago
  last night someone told me about objdump -S. i wish i'd known about this many years ago; it would have saved me so much work in my defense, though, it's possible the option didn't exist when i first read the objdump manual
- shadow28 2y ago
  Slightly off topic, but there's currently work underway to introduce queue like semantics to Kafka interestingly enough - https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/KAFKA/KIP-932%3A+Queues+for+Kafka https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/KAFKA/KIP-932%3A...
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
noisy_boy 2y ago
> Also, I've personally seen more interest in AI in devs that have little interest in technology, but a big interest in delivering. They are/will be the management's darling because they too are all about delivering without any interest in technology either. Well designed technology isn't seen as foundation anymore; it is merely a tool to just keep the machine running. If parts of the machine are being damaged by the lack of judgement in the process, that shouldn't come in the way of this year's bonus; it'll be something to worry about in the next financial year. Nobody knows whats going to happen in the long-term anyway, make hay while the sun shines. The age of short-term is upon us.

dartos 2y ago

I’ve noticed this more and more since 2020. A lot of people who entered the field in the past 6 or so years are here for the money, obviously. Nothing wrong with that at all, but as someone with a long time programming and technology passion, it’s sad to see that change.

sgarland 2y ago
There’s certainly nothing wrong with enjoying the high pay, no – I definitely do. But yeah, it’s upsetting to find out how few people care. Even moreso when they double down and say that you shouldn’t care either, because it’s been abstracted away, blah blah blah. Who do you think is going to continue creating these abstractions for you?
- ebiester 2y ago
  ...Someone else who thinks of actual web applications as an abstraction. In the olden days, we used to throw it over to "Ops" and say, "your problem now." And Junior developers have always been overwhelmed with the details and under pressure to deliver enough to keep their job. None of this is new! I'm a graybeard now, but I remember seniors having the same complaints back then. "Kids these days" never gets old.
  - conductr 2y ago
    I get what you’re saying, but at the same time I feel like I encounter the real world results of this erosion constantly. While we have more software than ever, it all just kind of feels janky these days. I encounter errors in places I never had before, doing simple things. The other day I was doing a simple copy and paste operation (it was some basic csv formatted text from vs code to excel iirc) and I encountered a Windows (not excel or vs code) error prompt that my clipboard data had been lost in the time it took me to Alt+Tab and Ctrl+v, something I’ve been doing ~daily for 3 decades without any issues. I’m more of a solo full stack dev and don’t really have first hand experience building software at scale and the process it takes to manage a codebase the size of the Windows OS, but these are the kinds of issues I see regularly these days and wouldn’t in the past. I also use macOS daily for almost as long and the Apple software has really tanked in terms of quality, I hit bugs and unexpected errors regularly. I generally don’t use their software (Safari, Mail, etc) when I can avoid it. Also have to admit lack of features is a big issue for me on their software.
- bumby 2y ago
  I get the pragmatism argument, but I would like to think certain professions should hold themselves to a higher standard. Doctors, lawyers, and engineers have a duty to society IMO that runs counter to a “just mail it in to cash a paycheck” mentality. I guess it comes down to whether you consider software developers to be that same kind of engineer. Certainly I don’t want safety critical software engineers to have that cavalier attitude (although I’ve seen it).
choilive 2y ago
Its been a while since my undergrad (>10 yrs) but many of my peers were majoring in CS or EE/CE because of the money, at the time I thought it was a bit depressing as well. With a few more years under my belt I realized theres nothing wrong with doing good work and providing yourself/your family a decent living. Not everyone needs the passion in their field to become among the best or become a "10x"er to contribute. We all have different passions, but we all need to pay the bills.
- neilv 2y ago
  Yeah, I think that the quality of work (skill + conscientiousness), and the motivation for doing the work, are two separate things. Off-the-cuff, three groups: 1. There are people who are motivated by having a solid income, yet they take the professionalism seriously, and do skilled rock-solid work, 9-5. I'd be happy to work with these people. 2. There are other people who are motivated by having a solid or more-than-solid income, and (regardless of skill level), it's non-stop sprint performance art, gaming promotion metrics, resume-driven development, practicing Leetcode, and hopping at the next opportunity regardless of where that leaves the project and team. 3. Then there's those weirdos who are motivated by something about the work itself, and would be doing it even if it didn't pay well. Over the years, these people spend so much time and energy on the something, that they tend to develop more and stronger skills than the others. I'd be happy to work with these people, so long as they can also be professional (including rolling up sleeves for the non-fun parts), or amenable to learning to be professional. Half-joke: The potential of group #3 is threatening to sharp-elbowed group #2, so group #2 neutralizes them via frat gatekeeping tactics (yeah-but-what-school-did-you-go-to snobbery, Leetcode shibboleth for nothing but whether you rehearsed Leetcode rituals, cliques, culture fit, etc.). Startups might do well to have a mix of #3 and #1, and to stay far away from #2. But startups -- especially the last decade-plus of too many growth investment scams -- are often run by affluent people who grew up being taught #2 skills (for how you game your way into prestigious school, aggressively self-interested networking and promoting yourself, etc.).
  - dartos 2y ago
    I’m in group 3 for sure. The hardest part of any job I’ve had is doing the not so fun parts (meetings, keeping up with emails, solidly finishing work before moving on to something new)
jayd16 2y ago
Maybe a lack of learned healthy shame from people joining the industry during the covid hiring spree.

carlmr 2y ago

>Cloud was a mistake; it’s inculcated people with the idea that chasing efficiency and optimization doesn’t matter, because you can always scale up or out. Similarly Docker is an amazing technology, yet it enabled the dependency tower of babels that we have today. It enabled developers that don't care about cleaning up their depencies. Kubernetes is amazing technology, yet it enabled the developers that don't care to ship applications that constantly crash, but who cares, kubernetes will automatically restart everything. Cloud and now AI are similar enabler technologies. They could be used for good, but there are too many people that just don't care.

shadowgovt 2y ago
The fine art of industry is building more and more elaborate complicated systems atop things someone deeply cares about to be used by those who don't have to deeply care. How many developers do we imagine even know the difference between SIMD and SISD operators, much less whether their software stack knows how to take advantage of SIMD? How many developers do we imagine even know how RAM chips store bits or how a semiconductor works? We're just watching the bar of "Don't need to care because a reliable system exists" move through something we know and care about in our lifetimes. Progress is great to watch in action.
- blibble 2y ago
  > How many developers do we imagine even know the difference between SIMD and SISD operators, much less whether their software stack knows how to take advantage of SIMD? How many developers do we imagine even know how RAM chips store bits or how a semiconductor works? hopefully some of those that did a computer science degree? (all of what you've said was part of mine)
  - shadowgovt 2y ago
    Globally, only 41% of software developers even have a bachelor's degree.
- mistrial9 2y ago

dboreham 2y ago

[flagged]

jcgrillo 2y ago

In a similar vein, some days I feel like a human link generator into e.g. postgres or kafka documentation. When docs are that clear, refined, and just damn good but it seems like nobody is willing to actually read them closely enough to "get it" it's just a very depressing and demotivating experience. If I could never again have to explain what a transaction isolation level is or why calling kafka a "queue" makes no sense at all I'd probably live an extra decade. At the root of it, there's a profound arrogance in putting someone else in a position where they are compelled to tell you you're wrong[1]. Curious, careful people don't do this very often because they are aware of the limits of their knowledge and when they don't know something they go find it out. Unfortunately this is surprisingly rare. [1] to be clear, I'm speaking here as someone who has been guilty of this before, now regrets it, and hopes to never do it again.

sgarland 2y ago
I've taken to asking if people have read docs (and linking them to the correct page). So far it hasn't changed anything. Unfortunate.
kragen 2y ago
last night someone told me about objdump -S. i wish i'd known about this many years ago; it would have saved me so much work in my defense, though, it's possible the option didn't exist when i first read the objdump manual
shadow28 2y ago
Slightly off topic, but there's currently work underway to introduce queue like semantics to Kafka interestingly enough - https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/KAFKA/KIP-932%3A+Queues+for+Kafka https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/KAFKA/KIP-932%3A...

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

noisy_boy 2y ago

> Also, I've personally seen more interest in AI in devs that have little interest in technology, but a big interest in delivering. They are/will be the management's darling because they too are all about delivering without any interest in technology either. Well designed technology isn't seen as foundation anymore; it is merely a tool to just keep the machine running. If parts of the machine are being damaged by the lack of judgement in the process, that shouldn't come in the way of this year's bonus; it'll be something to worry about in the next financial year. Nobody knows whats going to happen in the long-term anyway, make hay while the sun shines. The age of short-term is upon us.