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> The languages that dominated the 2000s (Ruby, Python, Javscript, PHP) were all more or less derived from Smalltalk One of these is not like the others. Javas

> The languages that dominated the 2000s (Ruby, Python, Javscript, PHP) were all more or less derived from Smalltalk One of these is not like the others. Javascript derives from Lisp (first-class functions, lambdas, closures), not Smalltalk.

panzi 2y ago
Python has those too, although with less convenient syntax (multiline functions (closures) can only be at statement locations).
- alex_smart 2y ago
  Sure, but use of those patterns is not idiomatic in Python.
robertkrahn01 2y ago
Brendan Eich used both Scheme and Self as inspirations. Self is a dialect of Smalltalk. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_Eich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_Eich
- pessimizer 2y ago
  Did you link his biography? The claim is that he used Self as an inspiration, not that there was once a man named Brendan Eich.
astrobe_ 2y ago
More than features, JS derives from Lisp because its author was a Scheme implementor. Otherwise function pointers are trivially done even in assembly language, and Smalltalk does have closures. Or maybe you think of the fact that JS uses prototype-based OOP, which makes it closer to what one would do with Scheme (something inspired from CLOS I guess) than Smalltalk ?
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Prototype-based OOP came first in SELF, a Smalltalk dialect. CLOS is an evolution from Flavors and similar Lisp packages, and outside Lisp, Julia would be the closest to it, in modern times, not counting Dylan.
  - lispm 2y ago
    > Prototype-based OOP came first in SELF Isn't prototype-based OOP roughly a decade older? -> for example "Director" from Ken Kahn is from 1976.
    - pjmlp 2y ago
      Maybe, I never heard of "Director", its documentation seems hard to come by in digital world. Although Wikipedia also points out that, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prototype-based_programming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prototype-based_programming Actually your remark has made me dive into alternative prototype based languages.
      - lispm 2y ago
        Check the resume of Ken Kahn: http://toontalk.com/resume.pdf http://toontalk.com/resume.pdf Director Guide: https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/6302/AIM-482b.pdf https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/6302/AIM-482b... Creation of Computer Animation from Story Descriptions: https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/16012/07200639.pdf https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/16012/0720063... The other mentioned tool was Thinglab, by Alan Borning https://www.ijcai.org/Proceedings/77-1/Papers/085.pdf https://www.ijcai.org/Proceedings/77-1/Papers/085.pdf "The Smalltalk notion of an object has been modified and extended in a number of ways. In ThingLab, objects are constructed interactively by editing and making descendants of prototypes. An abstraction hierarchy is used that allows arbitrarily many levels of both parents and descendants, with the problem of objects with several parents being handled by the technique of merging. There is no distinction between classes and instances." "The Programming Language Aspects of ThingLab, a Constraint-Oriented Simulation Laboratory" https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/357146.357147 https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/357146.357147 "CLASSES VERSUS PROTOTYPES IN OBJECT-ORIENTED LANGUAGES" https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/324493.324538 https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/324493.324538 Available in the Browser, running in Smalltalk: https://constraints.cs.washington.edu/thinglab/ https://constraints.cs.washington.edu/thinglab/

panzi 2y ago

Python has those too, although with less convenient syntax (multiline functions (closures) can only be at statement locations).

alex_smart 2y ago
Sure, but use of those patterns is not idiomatic in Python.

robertkrahn01 2y ago

Brendan Eich used both Scheme and Self as inspirations. Self is a dialect of Smalltalk. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_Eich https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan_Eich

pessimizer 2y ago
Did you link his biography? The claim is that he used Self as an inspiration, not that there was once a man named Brendan Eich.

astrobe_ 2y ago

More than features, JS derives from Lisp because its author was a Scheme implementor. Otherwise function pointers are trivially done even in assembly language, and Smalltalk does have closures. Or maybe you think of the fact that JS uses prototype-based OOP, which makes it closer to what one would do with Scheme (something inspired from CLOS I guess) than Smalltalk ?

pjmlp 2y ago
Prototype-based OOP came first in SELF, a Smalltalk dialect. CLOS is an evolution from Flavors and similar Lisp packages, and outside Lisp, Julia would be the closest to it, in modern times, not counting Dylan.
- lispm 2y ago
  > Prototype-based OOP came first in SELF Isn't prototype-based OOP roughly a decade older? -> for example "Director" from Ken Kahn is from 1976.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Maybe, I never heard of "Director", its documentation seems hard to come by in digital world. Although Wikipedia also points out that, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prototype-based_programming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prototype-based_programming Actually your remark has made me dive into alternative prototype based languages.
    - lispm 2y ago
      Check the resume of Ken Kahn: http://toontalk.com/resume.pdf http://toontalk.com/resume.pdf Director Guide: https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/6302/AIM-482b.pdf https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/6302/AIM-482b... Creation of Computer Animation from Story Descriptions: https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/16012/07200639.pdf https://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/16012/0720063... The other mentioned tool was Thinglab, by Alan Borning https://www.ijcai.org/Proceedings/77-1/Papers/085.pdf https://www.ijcai.org/Proceedings/77-1/Papers/085.pdf "The Smalltalk notion of an object has been modified and extended in a number of ways. In ThingLab, objects are constructed interactively by editing and making descendants of prototypes. An abstraction hierarchy is used that allows arbitrarily many levels of both parents and descendants, with the problem of objects with several parents being handled by the technique of merging. There is no distinction between classes and instances." "The Programming Language Aspects of ThingLab, a Constraint-Oriented Simulation Laboratory" https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/357146.357147 https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/357146.357147 "CLASSES VERSUS PROTOTYPES IN OBJECT-ORIENTED LANGUAGES" https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/324493.324538 https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.5555/324493.324538 Available in the Browser, running in Smalltalk: https://constraints.cs.washington.edu/thinglab/ https://constraints.cs.washington.edu/thinglab/