10 ms·

Study: Playing D&D helps autistic players in social interactions

184 points by tomgp 2y ago

1GZ0 2y ago
Had many similar experiences when role playing in video games like Minecraft with an autistic relative. Him putting his needs and emotions in the context of the game made him readily engage in banter in a way that he would normally have a tough time doing.
- fiftyacorn 2y ago
  From experience it can be hard to judge whether participation in the banter is truly them putting themselves in the context of the game, or just mirroring the existing banter
- Der_Einzige 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - recursive 2y ago
    What does that mean?
  - talldayo 2y ago
    "Source? I made it the fuck up!"
    - Der_Einzige 2y ago
      Assumptions make an ass out of you.
      - talldayo 2y ago
        Correlations without proven causality makes you no better than Freud.
  - shepherdjerred 2y ago
    I would love to see some evidence
    - Der_Einzige 2y ago
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7251476/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7251476/ From the abstract "The game Minecraft is extremely popular and of particular interest to children diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder." From the paper "The open-ended narrative structure of Minecraft, especially when used in Creative Mode, facilitates constructive play of a type that resembles real-life block-building play along the lines of Lego or similar interlinking toy systems. These real-world block building toys are similarly popular among children diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder (ASD" "The popularity of Minecraft with children with ASD seems fairly universal" "the very use of Minecraft as a tool for supporting the reinforcement of a positive social communication skillset is in a way, an approach which is aligned to, rather than opposed to, particular aspects of neurodiversity." "Certain communication skills, such as facial expression, gestures, or tone of voice, do not have parallels in the video games environment of Minecraft," ----- Even if it doesn't fully directly show "causality" at the level you'll likely want, the quotes are clear that if you have ASD, you almost certainly play minecraft, and minecraft is tailor made for neuro divergent people. And there's some compelling evidence showing that if you put some "normal" people around folks with ASD, it can have "social contaigen" effects - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2927813/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2927813/
      - shepherdjerred 2y ago
        Thanks for providing that. I don't think the result is all that surprising. As your quote supports, building block toys are popular with autistic children. Minecraft is essentially a good implementation of a block based game. Like you said, I'm not satisfied with the causality. I'm not sure how you'd prove that either. Doesn't autism show within a few years of age, much earlier than most(?) children start playing games like Minecraft?
  - idiotsecant 2y ago
    That's like saying that round holes are catalysts for round pegs. The kids playing Minecraft are doing it because the experience resonates with them.
- idiotsecant 2y ago
  People on the spectrum are often quite adept at 'task based' communication, in the service of clear objectives and common goals. To the point that neurotypical friends and family might be frustrated that they are so focused on the task. It becomes more difficult when that socialization is open-ended.
holsta 2y ago
I've run games with self-described autistic players, and I found it a supreme challenge. * Being unable to complete a character sheet unless someone walked them through it and made every decision for them * Being unable to come up with character background * Not being able to communicate if they were coming to a game or not * Being 30-40 mins late without communicating * Walking around, playing on their phone * Demanding handwritten journals / game tracking because the sounds of typing ruined the immersion for them * Constantly having to remind them of rules from session 0, such as 'no alcohol before or during the game' * Extreme arguing over dice rolls * Projecting their trauma onto many character and DM interactions * Showing up with real-life gifts for the DM, expecting in-game rewards Most recently, I lasted 12 sessions of 4-6 hours each before I cancelled the game. It killed my joy and I haven't DM'd since. It's been years now. Typing that out made feel sad.
- voidUpdate 2y ago
  It sounds like you just had some awful players, I've played with a lot of people on the spectrum and the majority of the time they've been fine to play with
  - AnEro 2y ago
    Yea mostly they are obsessive about the game like I'd say they'd be more likely to be min-maxers from my experience. Just unintentionally so you don't have alot of the toxic downsides of the min-maxers of forcing xyz situations or not having a backstory, it was more thats how they had fun building a character.
    - voidUpdate 2y ago
      Yeah, generally I will minmax a bit, but I do try to bear in mind the character themself when I design them, so I'll try to organise stats optimally, but pick thematic spells, for example. I have fun not dying, but also in having a character that makes sense to me
      - 2y ago
thom 2y ago
My wife's an art psychotherapist and I DM for a couple of our kids and their friends. We've talked about this a fair bit - being able to externalise and contain difficult emotions can be extremely powerful. But also just having that relationship of trust, which I think D&D really demands, can be somewhat therapeutic. You're not going to get mocked for being serious, you're not going to get in trouble for being silly, and sometimes when there's conflict it helps to be able to mediate that through your character's persona. And sometimes you really just want to work out your rage and attack the nearest NPC and undo hours of preparation by your friendly local DM, who in turn will seek out his own favoured form of therapy.
- bane 2y ago
  I'm reminded of this old video https://youtu.be/zng5kRle4FA https://youtu.be/zng5kRle4FA What makes it really humorous is how incredibly well it captures the particulars of an actual session, most notably the socially awkward interactions and in-jokes which normally would have been the focus of bullying, but in this space resonate as the sort of very earnest fun play they were intended as. Having these places to go to, when the rest of your week is full of generally challenging interactions designed to tear people down, can be absolutely incredible sources needed to build up a sense of self-worth. D&D in some ways was possibly the place where the proto-seed for this kind of nerd-safe place was created. There may be some prior versions of this, maybe golden age Sci-fi book clubs or Trek gatherings or something, but D&D seems to be where it particularly gelled and crystalized hard. It's no wonder that it became part of the 80's moral panic since it threatened to provide a place where nerd culture could find itself and took a measure of control away from those in charge of the panic with regards to how one should behave and think. Today there are many many of these kinds of environments, and in a sense when formed a certain way like Open Source Software, have turned global industries upside-down. But even competitive card playing tournaments, demoscene parties, cosplay conventions, video game conventions, and so on are all an outgrowth of what D&D really started. My heart swells when I see little nerd culture shops that sell comic books and manga and figurines have signs out front for "Boardgame Thursdays!" or "Magic Tournament this Saturday!" Because there will for certain be at least one person who attends, who had an absolutely terrible month being shat on by most of the people they encounter, and will thrive in this place. Where it's safe to joke, be yourself, have fun. And that confidence and those social encounters might be not just enough to turn a nerdy kid into a CTO, but could also keep them away from the deep black hole of self-worthlessness, depression, and maybe worse.
torginus 2y ago
Honestly I think socially awkward people quickly get ostracized, and socially isolated early in life. Due to this, they get less chances to practice social interaction, something they were somewhat worse at in the first place, and fall even further behind on these skills. DnD allows them to practice these skills, such as high-stakes social conflict, bargaining, and just plain old getting along, in a relatively safe environment.
- CuriouslyC 2y ago
  It's not just lack of practice, when these people get picked on they internalize low self value, so even if they practice social skills enough to get the hang of it they're still going to be awkward because they tend to act from a "loser" frame. That internalized low self value can be incredibly hard to fix, much harder than just developing social skills.
  - imbnwa 2y ago
    Also known as "Loser's Lose" and "Winner's Win". A lot of social dynamics run on this principle.
- JaumeGreen 2y ago
  It also gives people a framework in where to learn how to communicate. They can try different approaches, the stakes are low (in real life terms) if they fail, their companions and the DM will not only serve an example but give hints on how to do that better. Anyone with problems in social communication could make use of it as a great resource.
- idiotsecant 2y ago
  Yes, this is correct, I think. It is a painful but true fact that the world is constructed according to the preferences of the majority neurotypical population, and if you want to survive in it you need strong masking and coping strategies if your brain doesn't work the same way. It is not fun developing or using these strategies but it's vitally important.
beezlebroxxxxxx 2y ago
The popularity of D&D with people on the spectrum is similar to the popularity of fantasy/sci-fi lit and games and movies for the same population group, and for the same reasons (ime): technical abstractions and a strong focus on "systems" ('logical' magic systems are valorized over 'illogical' ones), often simplistic characters with very clear telegraphed and consistent archetypes, plots with heavy focus on simpler good vs. evil conflict, more chances to identify with non-human characters (a vehicle for expressing divergent thought processes/behaviors). The difference maker seems to be that well done D&D games, with good DMs, force the players to interact with each other and problem solve together. Which, to me, suggests there's nothing particularly special about D&D beside it being something that people on the spectrum like --- what is special is the social interaction and problem solving. It would be interesting to see how gender plays into further studies. In my experience, autism in women can often look quite different than autism in men (generalizing of course).
- baerrie 2y ago
  I challenge the notion that autistic people seek more logical systems or simpler moral situations. Imo the day to day interactions of people and the world views they ascribe to are far simpler than many complex games or fantasy/scifi themes and or stories. In my experience, i have an excess of thinking around every single thing so seeing that complexity and nuance captured in media or a game, and in people willing to dive into those intricacies, makes me feel seen.
  - beezlebroxxxxxx 2y ago
    That's interesting. In my experience with people on the spectrum, obviously acknowledging that the spectrum is so broad and inclusive at this point as to be almost meaningless in terms of specificity, they really, really, want logical systems and struggle with ambiguity, whether that be in moral, social, or fictional, situations. Clear cut distinctions between wrong and right, and these media properties themselves, give them an almost joyous sense of ease and confidence. It can be very personal for them. Fantasy and sci-fi themes in media can be complex, but, in my experience, the people I know on the spectrum are far more drawn to fare of a particular kind: systems focused and morally clear-cut. Complexity for them is often more about scale. They'll pick a Brandon Sanderson book/series over a Gene Wolfe book (or Peake's Gormenghast) or a much more thematically and emotionally rich and complicated realist story like Proust's In Search of Lost Time (comparable in a way to the giant fantasy epics with multi volumes). They'll pick an enormous space opera over Ursula K Le Guin's The Dispossessed. But these are all generalizations. Manifestations of autism can look and be wildly different.
jbverschoor 2y ago
[flagged]
- ziddoap 2y ago
  >Fifteen autistic children, ten males and five females, ten- to fifteen-years old, participated in this study. They attended a special educational school specifically for children diagnosed with autism Those that participated in the study were diagnosed with autism.
  - jbverschoor 2y ago
    [flagged]
- shlant 2y ago
  > Please stop classifying socially awkward or socially underdeveloped people as autistic. It’s not the same. who are you talking to?
lupire 2y ago
Most of the result is "Autistic people are more comfortable playing D&D than in natural social interactions", which is well known. A small part was that some people "bleed" personality from their fantasy persona to their real persona. You can do that in D&D, but you can also do that with any kind of self-talk / persona building / masking, which non-autists also do. Actors in movies and plays do it too.
ksymph 2y ago
I'm autistic, but I've never found the appeal of D&D. All the challenges and social pitfalls are still there in interacting with other players, but on top of that there's an additional set of unfamiliar rules and expectations for how to play my character and the game. Outside of the social aspect, I don't enjoy it as a game much either, with its slow pace and focus on narrative. Though, both groups I've played it with consisted of close seasoned players, none of whom I was particularly comfortable with, which isn't the best introduction. I'm curious how much the particular setup in the study affected the outcome, with the social reference sheets and presumably other unique factors - with how much D&D can vary based on the DM and players, it'd be interesting to see this study done with a variety of DMs guiding things in different ways.
- _a_a_a_ 2y ago
  > with its slow pace and focus on narrative am curious, could you elaborate a touch on these? TIA
  - a1o 2y ago
    I must have played a different D&D, the group I used to play very much favored Hack & Slash. When we wanted something more narrative we used a different system (GURPS was a good one)
    - tstrimple 2y ago
      That's interesting, I find the combat in GURPS to be FAR more satisfying and less restrictive than D&D. It's definitely more number crunching and more complex, but it's an internally consistent system so once you know it things flow pretty well. The leaky abstractions from D&D feel too much like it's trying to replicate a video game and doing so poorly.
      - entropicdrifter 2y ago
        Ironically it's closer to the other way around: Most video game RPGs are mechanically either based on D&D, based on another tabletop RPG that came about in the same era (Runequest, etc), or based on a tabletop RPG that was in-turn based on D&D.
AdmiralAsshat 2y ago
Seems like an extension of the observation that very introverted people can unexpectedly flourish in acting professions: I think people who are socially awkward can have an easier time compartmentalizing their social anxieties when under a persona because there's a part of the brain that can say, "It's not me; I'm playing a role."
- BurningFrog 2y ago
  I suspect it's more that there is a script. You don't have the "what am I supposed to say now??" panic, and you don't have to understand an unfamiliar social situation.
  - AdmiralAsshat 2y ago
    You arguably have a "script" in D&D, too, in the form of your character sheet. "I am a chaotic neutral dwarf. I will act aggressively towards elves.", etc. You are encouraged to act and speak as your character, not as yourself.
    - zzo38computer 2y ago
      I think it is not really a "script"; it is a description of the character. This will affect as you will do in the game, and you will have to make it up what happens according to the circumstances as it is being done, instead of everything being written ahead of time. (Even if you do have plans, which you might (I often will, and the GM also often will), things will happen unexpectedly and cannot use the plans exactly like they are anyways.) I think that you do not generally need game mechanical traits in your character sheet to do this; you can write it in a spare section if you want to do (it is useful to have spare sections for this and other purposes; I will often want to add many extra notes that there are not pre-defined sections for). In GURPS, you would generally represent some of such things with mental disadvantages and quirks. I prefer to not use mental disadvantages unless I specifically want the game effects of those disadvantages (e.g. if you are unlucky, or cursed, or take only half as many turns as other characters, or you will tell the truth half of the time that you do not intend to do so, etc), and would generally rather have a choice, even if my character's personality is supposed to be something, I can do it by myself instead of making the game to try to do it for me. I do usually add quirks though, and I do more often want physical and social disadvantages.
mock-possum 2y ago
I think for me, and maybe this should be obvious - what truly helps is having a good DM. Because then you’re not just having a chance to ‘play’ at social interactions - you’re playing under the watch of a caring mediator. The DM is going to clarify things, guide the discussions and dialogues, suggest options, correct misassumptions, etc. - in a way that almost no one ever would IRL. Play-acting social interaction isn’t really any less nerve wracking to me than having a ‘real’ interaction, because to me all interactions are acting anyway as far as I’m concerned. There isn’t any fundamental difference in terms of energy expended - unless someone else, e.g. the DM, is there to shoulder some of that workload. Then it’s a little easier, a little lower stakes.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
  > to me all interactions are acting anyway as far as I’m concerned I suspect this is a point that is often under-appreciated. I don’t have much else to add but it really can’t be overstated how accurate this is. Just wanted to highlight the statement since I think it expresses the idea well.
starkparker 2y ago
> Atherton et al. wanted to specifically investigate how autistic players experience D&D when playing in groups with other autistic players. It's essentially a case study with a small sample size—just eight participants This is a nice study but not one to extrapolate anything from.
- carom 2y ago
  Why is this style of comment on every single study that gets posted? It was a small sample size in rats, we get it.
  - seba_dos1 2y ago
    It is helpful. Those who hoped to see what the title implicitly promised now know that it isn't there, saving a click.
  - dyauspitr 2y ago
    It bears repeating in every thread with a small sample size or people might run away with what is basically anecdata as scientifically validated results.
throwaway-x881 2y ago
Related: Seminar on "Dungeons and Dragons Group Therapy": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PwP8Jhkl3w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PwP8Jhkl3w
blobbers 2y ago
All-in podcast was presenting RFK recently who highlighted autism rates of 1/22. Is it just me or is the spectrum of autism now just labeling anyone with social awkwardness or challenges expressing feelings as autistic? Because I feel like there is socially awkward, and then there is 'Dating on the spectrum' level autistic. I'm not super up to date yet, but is there an actual 'science' based test (blood, dna, something other than observing behaviors). I've seen the diagnosis of l1, l2 and l3 autism, but this isn't cited by the paper (or at least wasn't in my skim). The paper does indicate that imagination, social interactions and community are benefits from D&D. These benefits aren't specific to autistic people though; all growing kids can benefit from these types of activities and they're challenges that neurotypical kids encounter as well.
RecycledEle 2y ago
Yes, it does. Old Sierra Online games helped me learn some social skills and how to deal with life.

184 points by tomgp 2y ago

1GZ0 2y ago

Had many similar experiences when role playing in video games like Minecraft with an autistic relative. Him putting his needs and emotions in the context of the game made him readily engage in banter in a way that he would normally have a tough time doing.

fiftyacorn 2y ago
From experience it can be hard to judge whether participation in the banter is truly them putting themselves in the context of the game, or just mirroring the existing banter
Der_Einzige 2y ago
[flagged]
- recursive 2y ago
  What does that mean?
- talldayo 2y ago
  "Source? I made it the fuck up!"
  - Der_Einzige 2y ago
    Assumptions make an ass out of you.
    - talldayo 2y ago
      Correlations without proven causality makes you no better than Freud.
- shepherdjerred 2y ago
  I would love to see some evidence
  - Der_Einzige 2y ago
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7251476/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7251476/ From the abstract "The game Minecraft is extremely popular and of particular interest to children diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder." From the paper "The open-ended narrative structure of Minecraft, especially when used in Creative Mode, facilitates constructive play of a type that resembles real-life block-building play along the lines of Lego or similar interlinking toy systems. These real-world block building toys are similarly popular among children diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder (ASD" "The popularity of Minecraft with children with ASD seems fairly universal" "the very use of Minecraft as a tool for supporting the reinforcement of a positive social communication skillset is in a way, an approach which is aligned to, rather than opposed to, particular aspects of neurodiversity." "Certain communication skills, such as facial expression, gestures, or tone of voice, do not have parallels in the video games environment of Minecraft," ----- Even if it doesn't fully directly show "causality" at the level you'll likely want, the quotes are clear that if you have ASD, you almost certainly play minecraft, and minecraft is tailor made for neuro divergent people. And there's some compelling evidence showing that if you put some "normal" people around folks with ASD, it can have "social contaigen" effects - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2927813/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2927813/
    - shepherdjerred 2y ago
      Thanks for providing that. I don't think the result is all that surprising. As your quote supports, building block toys are popular with autistic children. Minecraft is essentially a good implementation of a block based game. Like you said, I'm not satisfied with the causality. I'm not sure how you'd prove that either. Doesn't autism show within a few years of age, much earlier than most(?) children start playing games like Minecraft?
- idiotsecant 2y ago
  That's like saying that round holes are catalysts for round pegs. The kids playing Minecraft are doing it because the experience resonates with them.
idiotsecant 2y ago
People on the spectrum are often quite adept at 'task based' communication, in the service of clear objectives and common goals. To the point that neurotypical friends and family might be frustrated that they are so focused on the task. It becomes more difficult when that socialization is open-ended.

holsta 2y ago

I've run games with self-described autistic players, and I found it a supreme challenge. * Being unable to complete a character sheet unless someone walked them through it and made every decision for them * Being unable to come up with character background * Not being able to communicate if they were coming to a game or not * Being 30-40 mins late without communicating * Walking around, playing on their phone * Demanding handwritten journals / game tracking because the sounds of typing ruined the immersion for them * Constantly having to remind them of rules from session 0, such as 'no alcohol before or during the game' * Extreme arguing over dice rolls * Projecting their trauma onto many character and DM interactions * Showing up with real-life gifts for the DM, expecting in-game rewards Most recently, I lasted 12 sessions of 4-6 hours each before I cancelled the game. It killed my joy and I haven't DM'd since. It's been years now. Typing that out made feel sad.

voidUpdate 2y ago
It sounds like you just had some awful players, I've played with a lot of people on the spectrum and the majority of the time they've been fine to play with
- AnEro 2y ago
  Yea mostly they are obsessive about the game like I'd say they'd be more likely to be min-maxers from my experience. Just unintentionally so you don't have alot of the toxic downsides of the min-maxers of forcing xyz situations or not having a backstory, it was more thats how they had fun building a character.
  - voidUpdate 2y ago
    Yeah, generally I will minmax a bit, but I do try to bear in mind the character themself when I design them, so I'll try to organise stats optimally, but pick thematic spells, for example. I have fun not dying, but also in having a character that makes sense to me
    - 2y ago

thom 2y ago

My wife's an art psychotherapist and I DM for a couple of our kids and their friends. We've talked about this a fair bit - being able to externalise and contain difficult emotions can be extremely powerful. But also just having that relationship of trust, which I think D&D really demands, can be somewhat therapeutic. You're not going to get mocked for being serious, you're not going to get in trouble for being silly, and sometimes when there's conflict it helps to be able to mediate that through your character's persona. And sometimes you really just want to work out your rage and attack the nearest NPC and undo hours of preparation by your friendly local DM, who in turn will seek out his own favoured form of therapy.

bane 2y ago
I'm reminded of this old video https://youtu.be/zng5kRle4FA https://youtu.be/zng5kRle4FA What makes it really humorous is how incredibly well it captures the particulars of an actual session, most notably the socially awkward interactions and in-jokes which normally would have been the focus of bullying, but in this space resonate as the sort of very earnest fun play they were intended as. Having these places to go to, when the rest of your week is full of generally challenging interactions designed to tear people down, can be absolutely incredible sources needed to build up a sense of self-worth. D&D in some ways was possibly the place where the proto-seed for this kind of nerd-safe place was created. There may be some prior versions of this, maybe golden age Sci-fi book clubs or Trek gatherings or something, but D&D seems to be where it particularly gelled and crystalized hard. It's no wonder that it became part of the 80's moral panic since it threatened to provide a place where nerd culture could find itself and took a measure of control away from those in charge of the panic with regards to how one should behave and think. Today there are many many of these kinds of environments, and in a sense when formed a certain way like Open Source Software, have turned global industries upside-down. But even competitive card playing tournaments, demoscene parties, cosplay conventions, video game conventions, and so on are all an outgrowth of what D&D really started. My heart swells when I see little nerd culture shops that sell comic books and manga and figurines have signs out front for "Boardgame Thursdays!" or "Magic Tournament this Saturday!" Because there will for certain be at least one person who attends, who had an absolutely terrible month being shat on by most of the people they encounter, and will thrive in this place. Where it's safe to joke, be yourself, have fun. And that confidence and those social encounters might be not just enough to turn a nerdy kid into a CTO, but could also keep them away from the deep black hole of self-worthlessness, depression, and maybe worse.

torginus 2y ago

Honestly I think socially awkward people quickly get ostracized, and socially isolated early in life. Due to this, they get less chances to practice social interaction, something they were somewhat worse at in the first place, and fall even further behind on these skills. DnD allows them to practice these skills, such as high-stakes social conflict, bargaining, and just plain old getting along, in a relatively safe environment.

CuriouslyC 2y ago
It's not just lack of practice, when these people get picked on they internalize low self value, so even if they practice social skills enough to get the hang of it they're still going to be awkward because they tend to act from a "loser" frame. That internalized low self value can be incredibly hard to fix, much harder than just developing social skills.
- imbnwa 2y ago
  Also known as "Loser's Lose" and "Winner's Win". A lot of social dynamics run on this principle.
JaumeGreen 2y ago
It also gives people a framework in where to learn how to communicate. They can try different approaches, the stakes are low (in real life terms) if they fail, their companions and the DM will not only serve an example but give hints on how to do that better. Anyone with problems in social communication could make use of it as a great resource.
idiotsecant 2y ago
Yes, this is correct, I think. It is a painful but true fact that the world is constructed according to the preferences of the majority neurotypical population, and if you want to survive in it you need strong masking and coping strategies if your brain doesn't work the same way. It is not fun developing or using these strategies but it's vitally important.

beezlebroxxxxxx 2y ago

The popularity of D&D with people on the spectrum is similar to the popularity of fantasy/sci-fi lit and games and movies for the same population group, and for the same reasons (ime): technical abstractions and a strong focus on "systems" ('logical' magic systems are valorized over 'illogical' ones), often simplistic characters with very clear telegraphed and consistent archetypes, plots with heavy focus on simpler good vs. evil conflict, more chances to identify with non-human characters (a vehicle for expressing divergent thought processes/behaviors). The difference maker seems to be that well done D&D games, with good DMs, force the players to interact with each other and problem solve together. Which, to me, suggests there's nothing particularly special about D&D beside it being something that people on the spectrum like --- what is special is the social interaction and problem solving. It would be interesting to see how gender plays into further studies. In my experience, autism in women can often look quite different than autism in men (generalizing of course).

baerrie 2y ago
I challenge the notion that autistic people seek more logical systems or simpler moral situations. Imo the day to day interactions of people and the world views they ascribe to are far simpler than many complex games or fantasy/scifi themes and or stories. In my experience, i have an excess of thinking around every single thing so seeing that complexity and nuance captured in media or a game, and in people willing to dive into those intricacies, makes me feel seen.
- beezlebroxxxxxx 2y ago
  That's interesting. In my experience with people on the spectrum, obviously acknowledging that the spectrum is so broad and inclusive at this point as to be almost meaningless in terms of specificity, they really, really, want logical systems and struggle with ambiguity, whether that be in moral, social, or fictional, situations. Clear cut distinctions between wrong and right, and these media properties themselves, give them an almost joyous sense of ease and confidence. It can be very personal for them. Fantasy and sci-fi themes in media can be complex, but, in my experience, the people I know on the spectrum are far more drawn to fare of a particular kind: systems focused and morally clear-cut. Complexity for them is often more about scale. They'll pick a Brandon Sanderson book/series over a Gene Wolfe book (or Peake's Gormenghast) or a much more thematically and emotionally rich and complicated realist story like Proust's In Search of Lost Time (comparable in a way to the giant fantasy epics with multi volumes). They'll pick an enormous space opera over Ursula K Le Guin's The Dispossessed. But these are all generalizations. Manifestations of autism can look and be wildly different.

jbverschoor 2y ago

[flagged]

ziddoap 2y ago
>Fifteen autistic children, ten males and five females, ten- to fifteen-years old, participated in this study. They attended a special educational school specifically for children diagnosed with autism Those that participated in the study were diagnosed with autism.
- jbverschoor 2y ago
  [flagged]
shlant 2y ago
> Please stop classifying socially awkward or socially underdeveloped people as autistic. It’s not the same. who are you talking to?

lupire 2y ago

Most of the result is "Autistic people are more comfortable playing D&D than in natural social interactions", which is well known. A small part was that some people "bleed" personality from their fantasy persona to their real persona. You can do that in D&D, but you can also do that with any kind of self-talk / persona building / masking, which non-autists also do. Actors in movies and plays do it too.

ksymph 2y ago

I'm autistic, but I've never found the appeal of D&D. All the challenges and social pitfalls are still there in interacting with other players, but on top of that there's an additional set of unfamiliar rules and expectations for how to play my character and the game. Outside of the social aspect, I don't enjoy it as a game much either, with its slow pace and focus on narrative. Though, both groups I've played it with consisted of close seasoned players, none of whom I was particularly comfortable with, which isn't the best introduction. I'm curious how much the particular setup in the study affected the outcome, with the social reference sheets and presumably other unique factors - with how much D&D can vary based on the DM and players, it'd be interesting to see this study done with a variety of DMs guiding things in different ways.

_a_a_a_ 2y ago
> with its slow pace and focus on narrative am curious, could you elaborate a touch on these? TIA
- a1o 2y ago
  I must have played a different D&D, the group I used to play very much favored Hack & Slash. When we wanted something more narrative we used a different system (GURPS was a good one)
  - tstrimple 2y ago
    That's interesting, I find the combat in GURPS to be FAR more satisfying and less restrictive than D&D. It's definitely more number crunching and more complex, but it's an internally consistent system so once you know it things flow pretty well. The leaky abstractions from D&D feel too much like it's trying to replicate a video game and doing so poorly.
    - entropicdrifter 2y ago
      Ironically it's closer to the other way around: Most video game RPGs are mechanically either based on D&D, based on another tabletop RPG that came about in the same era (Runequest, etc), or based on a tabletop RPG that was in-turn based on D&D.

AdmiralAsshat 2y ago

Seems like an extension of the observation that very introverted people can unexpectedly flourish in acting professions: I think people who are socially awkward can have an easier time compartmentalizing their social anxieties when under a persona because there's a part of the brain that can say, "It's not me; I'm playing a role."

BurningFrog 2y ago
I suspect it's more that there is a script. You don't have the "what am I supposed to say now??" panic, and you don't have to understand an unfamiliar social situation.
- AdmiralAsshat 2y ago
  You arguably have a "script" in D&D, too, in the form of your character sheet. "I am a chaotic neutral dwarf. I will act aggressively towards elves.", etc. You are encouraged to act and speak as your character, not as yourself.
  - zzo38computer 2y ago
    I think it is not really a "script"; it is a description of the character. This will affect as you will do in the game, and you will have to make it up what happens according to the circumstances as it is being done, instead of everything being written ahead of time. (Even if you do have plans, which you might (I often will, and the GM also often will), things will happen unexpectedly and cannot use the plans exactly like they are anyways.) I think that you do not generally need game mechanical traits in your character sheet to do this; you can write it in a spare section if you want to do (it is useful to have spare sections for this and other purposes; I will often want to add many extra notes that there are not pre-defined sections for). In GURPS, you would generally represent some of such things with mental disadvantages and quirks. I prefer to not use mental disadvantages unless I specifically want the game effects of those disadvantages (e.g. if you are unlucky, or cursed, or take only half as many turns as other characters, or you will tell the truth half of the time that you do not intend to do so, etc), and would generally rather have a choice, even if my character's personality is supposed to be something, I can do it by myself instead of making the game to try to do it for me. I do usually add quirks though, and I do more often want physical and social disadvantages.

mock-possum 2y ago

I think for me, and maybe this should be obvious - what truly helps is having a good DM. Because then you’re not just having a chance to ‘play’ at social interactions - you’re playing under the watch of a caring mediator. The DM is going to clarify things, guide the discussions and dialogues, suggest options, correct misassumptions, etc. - in a way that almost no one ever would IRL. Play-acting social interaction isn’t really any less nerve wracking to me than having a ‘real’ interaction, because to me all interactions are acting anyway as far as I’m concerned. There isn’t any fundamental difference in terms of energy expended - unless someone else, e.g. the DM, is there to shoulder some of that workload. Then it’s a little easier, a little lower stakes.

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
> to me all interactions are acting anyway as far as I’m concerned I suspect this is a point that is often under-appreciated. I don’t have much else to add but it really can’t be overstated how accurate this is. Just wanted to highlight the statement since I think it expresses the idea well.

starkparker 2y ago

> Atherton et al. wanted to specifically investigate how autistic players experience D&D when playing in groups with other autistic players. It's essentially a case study with a small sample size—just eight participants This is a nice study but not one to extrapolate anything from.

carom 2y ago
Why is this style of comment on every single study that gets posted? It was a small sample size in rats, we get it.
- seba_dos1 2y ago
  It is helpful. Those who hoped to see what the title implicitly promised now know that it isn't there, saving a click.
- dyauspitr 2y ago
  It bears repeating in every thread with a small sample size or people might run away with what is basically anecdata as scientifically validated results.

throwaway-x881 2y ago

Related: Seminar on "Dungeons and Dragons Group Therapy": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PwP8Jhkl3w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PwP8Jhkl3w

blobbers 2y ago

All-in podcast was presenting RFK recently who highlighted autism rates of 1/22. Is it just me or is the spectrum of autism now just labeling anyone with social awkwardness or challenges expressing feelings as autistic? Because I feel like there is socially awkward, and then there is 'Dating on the spectrum' level autistic. I'm not super up to date yet, but is there an actual 'science' based test (blood, dna, something other than observing behaviors). I've seen the diagnosis of l1, l2 and l3 autism, but this isn't cited by the paper (or at least wasn't in my skim). The paper does indicate that imagination, social interactions and community are benefits from D&D. These benefits aren't specific to autistic people though; all growing kids can benefit from these types of activities and they're challenges that neurotypical kids encounter as well.

RecycledEle 2y ago

Yes, it does. Old Sierra Online games helped me learn some social skills and how to deal with life.