5 ms·

> UK companies do not respect software engineers or reward them properly (not even stock), even interns in other places get paid 5x more than a senior engineer

by mmarq 2y ago

> UK companies do not respect software engineers or reward them properly (not even stock), even interns in other places get paid 5x more than a senior engineer in the UK. In monetary terms this is not true. A good software engineer can make 150-200K in the UK without going into finance or FAANG. In real terms you are better off making 50-80K in Germany, Spain, France, Poland, Italy, etc…, especially if you have children and don’t own property.

philipwhiuk 2y ago
Name a company paying 150-200K that’s not finance or FAANG?
- mmarq 2y ago
  According to levels.fyi: Personio, Deliveroo, Samsara, Atlassian, monday.com (and others, including my employer) I know many consultants that make 150K+ (which is 600£ per day)
  - m_rpn 2y ago
    Good for you, i work in finance in london and don't quite make that much, none of my friends in other places like JP, Goldman Sachs, Amazon, Instagram ecc does make 200k pounds/year base, maybe in tc yes. Skill issue probably. I would say 90-120k pounds/year base for a mid-senior engineer in FAANG/Finance is what most of us is being offered right now in London, based on my recent experience. What i feel is that many of us are being heavily undercut right now, me included, while consultancy keeps it's pace and everywhere outside London it's a bloodbath.
    - mmarq 2y ago
      RSUs and bonuses are part of compensation.
  - colesantiago 2y ago
    Apart for consultants which is what I recommend people get into for a high paying job, even looking at levels.fyi, the average pay is actually lower in the UK. Take Samsara, on average basis an entry level engineer in the US pays higher than a semi-senior SWE (SWE II) in the UK, taking into account the base as well for a senior also looks dismal for UK engineers. Even when these companies are public, UK salaries just don't seem to be competitive or appealing and this all just proves my point. Just go to the US, FAANG, finance or just be a consultant.
    - mmarq 2y ago
      Salaries in the US are much higher, but it doesn’t mean you can’t hit 150K of total compensation working for a non-FAANG company. Here’s one that advertised on this site: https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/meticulous/jobs/AkHpFa8-4-founding-engineer https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/meticulous/jobs/AkHpFa... Up to 160K plus 1% of equity.
      - philipwhiuk 2y ago
        Getting paid 80K is getting paid "Up to 160K" It's not a real figure.
  - haspok 2y ago
    There is no Atlassian salary data for the UK on levels.fyi. I think you are just quoting American salaries. Deliveroo L6 is 135k average, but I think it is more realistic to look at L5, which is just around 105k. Also, 600 a day as a contractor is nowhere near 150K+, it is 132K paid to your company's account (assuming 220 working days a year - but that's not a salary!), or you go via an umbrella and then it is even less. A 600 daily rate is pretty average in London, but only if you work for a bank - which classifies as "finance", I guess... But then you are not an employee, you are a contractor, which is very different.
    - mmarq 2y ago
      On levels.fyi there is one Atlassian P60 engineer (senior? staff?) in London making 230K+. On L60-L50, I’m not saying that everybody makes 150K+; I’m saying that it’s not impossible for a good senior engineer (or staff or principal, as we call them nowadays) to make more than 150K at a non-FAANG company. Maybe I got my maths wrong with contractors. I never did it myself, but I know they do crazy things with taxes (eg hiring their wife, son, dog and plants, to reduce the tax bill) and that they don’t take holidays. So I multiplied 600 by 5 and then by 50, got 150K and I assumed they’d make more than an employee earning the same.
      - haspok 2y ago
        I'd left the city 5 years ago, just before IR35 hit, so my info is not quite up to date, but in general I would say that nobody can work without taking any vacations - both for health and legal reasons. Some contracts may even stipulate a maximum number of days you can work in a year (that's where my 220 number is from). And it used to be that you could do some tricks to lower your taxes, but there is a limit, and after the IR35 reforms many firms decided they don't want contractors, or they are pushing you inside IR35, which means PAYE taxes, and worse (because you still have to do the accounting for your company, pay corporation tax etc). So contractors are earning LESS than an employee with an equivalent salary, plus there are some extra burdens. It used to be that a regular engineer (without any management responsibilities) could achieve higher income in the short term being a contractor, but I'm not sure that is the case anymore. Outside London, if you can find a place willing to take you on as a contractor it may still be worth it, because your daily rate will be less, meaning you may not reach higher tax brackets, and compared to almost everyone else around you you would still be king.
- mpalfrey 2y ago
  Not too many even in London really.

by mmarq 2y ago

philipwhiuk 2y ago

Name a company paying 150-200K that’s not finance or FAANG?

mmarq 2y ago
According to levels.fyi: Personio, Deliveroo, Samsara, Atlassian, monday.com (and others, including my employer) I know many consultants that make 150K+ (which is 600£ per day)
- m_rpn 2y ago
  Good for you, i work in finance in london and don't quite make that much, none of my friends in other places like JP, Goldman Sachs, Amazon, Instagram ecc does make 200k pounds/year base, maybe in tc yes. Skill issue probably. I would say 90-120k pounds/year base for a mid-senior engineer in FAANG/Finance is what most of us is being offered right now in London, based on my recent experience. What i feel is that many of us are being heavily undercut right now, me included, while consultancy keeps it's pace and everywhere outside London it's a bloodbath.
  - mmarq 2y ago
    RSUs and bonuses are part of compensation.
- colesantiago 2y ago
  Apart for consultants which is what I recommend people get into for a high paying job, even looking at levels.fyi, the average pay is actually lower in the UK. Take Samsara, on average basis an entry level engineer in the US pays higher than a semi-senior SWE (SWE II) in the UK, taking into account the base as well for a senior also looks dismal for UK engineers. Even when these companies are public, UK salaries just don't seem to be competitive or appealing and this all just proves my point. Just go to the US, FAANG, finance or just be a consultant.
  - mmarq 2y ago
    Salaries in the US are much higher, but it doesn’t mean you can’t hit 150K of total compensation working for a non-FAANG company. Here’s one that advertised on this site: https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/meticulous/jobs/AkHpFa8-4-founding-engineer https://www.ycombinator.com/companies/meticulous/jobs/AkHpFa... Up to 160K plus 1% of equity.
    - philipwhiuk 2y ago
      Getting paid 80K is getting paid "Up to 160K" It's not a real figure.
- haspok 2y ago
  There is no Atlassian salary data for the UK on levels.fyi. I think you are just quoting American salaries. Deliveroo L6 is 135k average, but I think it is more realistic to look at L5, which is just around 105k. Also, 600 a day as a contractor is nowhere near 150K+, it is 132K paid to your company's account (assuming 220 working days a year - but that's not a salary!), or you go via an umbrella and then it is even less. A 600 daily rate is pretty average in London, but only if you work for a bank - which classifies as "finance", I guess... But then you are not an employee, you are a contractor, which is very different.
  - mmarq 2y ago
    On levels.fyi there is one Atlassian P60 engineer (senior? staff?) in London making 230K+. On L60-L50, I’m not saying that everybody makes 150K+; I’m saying that it’s not impossible for a good senior engineer (or staff or principal, as we call them nowadays) to make more than 150K at a non-FAANG company. Maybe I got my maths wrong with contractors. I never did it myself, but I know they do crazy things with taxes (eg hiring their wife, son, dog and plants, to reduce the tax bill) and that they don’t take holidays. So I multiplied 600 by 5 and then by 50, got 150K and I assumed they’d make more than an employee earning the same.
    - haspok 2y ago
      I'd left the city 5 years ago, just before IR35 hit, so my info is not quite up to date, but in general I would say that nobody can work without taking any vacations - both for health and legal reasons. Some contracts may even stipulate a maximum number of days you can work in a year (that's where my 220 number is from). And it used to be that you could do some tricks to lower your taxes, but there is a limit, and after the IR35 reforms many firms decided they don't want contractors, or they are pushing you inside IR35, which means PAYE taxes, and worse (because you still have to do the accounting for your company, pay corporation tax etc). So contractors are earning LESS than an employee with an equivalent salary, plus there are some extra burdens. It used to be that a regular engineer (without any management responsibilities) could achieve higher income in the short term being a contractor, but I'm not sure that is the case anymore. Outside London, if you can find a place willing to take you on as a contractor it may still be worth it, because your daily rate will be less, meaning you may not reach higher tax brackets, and compared to almost everyone else around you you would still be king.
mpalfrey 2y ago
Not too many even in London really.