4 ms·

And this, friends, is the perfect example of why the modern tech interview process is pure insanity.

by qarl 2y ago

weinzierl 2y ago
It is the perfect example, why you should pay attention in your math class too.
- corimaith 2y ago
  I don't think the average CS curriculum is going to cover advanced game theory. And you certainly aren't going to doing most linear programming on the spot in a interview.
  - rustybolt 2y ago
    This is actually extremely basic game theory, but I agree that most CS programs would probably not cover it.
OmarShehata 2y ago
is it? If I was forced to ask this question as an interviewer, and the candidate said, "actually, you're wrong, here's why" that's a very good signal. Do most people not do this? (typically there's discussion with all the interviewers and it isn't just "did the candidate get the question right or not). I personally think a lot of big tech interview questions are dumb but I think the process isn't as broken as I thought, seeing it from both sides.
- metabagel 2y ago
  I suppose that telling the interviewer that they're wrong is a good way for the interviewee to test culture fit.
- rustybolt 2y ago
  > Do most people not do this? I'd say it's impossible to answer this question conclusively within the time frame of an interview. That makes it, in my opinion, a bad interview question. My answer to this question would be to show that I understand what it would take to answer this question correctly (you'd have to find a mixed strategy that has a positive expected value for every choice of number), I wouldn't be able to give a confident "yes" or "no" answer on the spot. I think that's the only correct answer. In practice, I think this question is advantegeous for those who confidently blurt out an answer and then make up a heuristic argument for it. But a heuristic argument can be found for both "yes" and "no".
- carlmr 2y ago
  >If I was forced to ask this question as an interviewer, and the candidate said, "actually, you're wrong, here's why" that's a very good signal. Do most people not do this? The question is whether Ballmers ego would allow him this flexibility if it's his own question. Some people might be very emotionally attached to the questions they created, but not so much to those they've been given as an interviewer. I've fared well pointing out issues with questions in the past and gotten the job. I'd try to be diplomatic about it though and not outright say they're wrong. Instead pointing out how with a classical binary search the expected value is negative, but there are strategies from game theory to deal with adversarial picks and here you could reach a positive expected value. Kind of a "yes, and..." approach. You acknowledge their view, and then you add a new perspective. But don't say they're wrong. Funny enough in situations where I suspect the interviewer was given the question it probably wouldn't have helped, not due to emotional attachment, but because the interviewer had a tenuous grasp of the topic themselves and couldn't stray from the script they were given.
- qarl 2y ago
  I think you're missing something. Presumably Balmer did ask this question. At least a few times. And yet he never heard of the correct answer, and believed the incorrect answer to be correct. That tells you that if anyone did say "actually, you're wrong" he never listened to them.
Jalad 2y ago
Is this a perfect example of broken modern tech interviews? Balmer's question seems fair for the complexity of the answer he was expecting. As the interviewee you would presumably provide the (mathematically) wrong answer, but you'd show your thinking along the way, including a small demonstration of CS principles. Keep in mind that Balmer had a long career, so if he ever asked this question, it was probably back in the 80s when no one expected you to come up with the complex solution outlined in the post. If you did outline the correct answer, that would be amazing, and you'd be an instant hire. But the question doesn't fundamentally seem broken to me because either answer (taking the bet or not) needs to be well justified.
- langcss 2y ago
  Yes because it is a question for a quant.
- rustybolt 2y ago
  The question seems like a mathematical one. What you're saying sounds to me like "your answer doesn't need to be correct, it just needs to sound reasonable". What you're filtering on with this question is good bullshitters. To me, the only reasonable to this question is "I don't know". I think even a mathematical genius like Terrence Tao would not be able to give you the answer to this on the spot. (Although I can also totally believe that he would instantly see this from some obscure theorem that only like 5 people on the planet know.)
  - IanCal 2y ago
    No, it's about understanding what an interview is for. They're not trying to get the answer. They're trying to find out what you know, how you think and how you communicate. Do you spot that it's different with one Vs many plays? Do you spot the binary search? Do you spot that an adversarial opponent can push things? Can you clearly communicate these? If you just say "I don't know" and that's it you are showing you don't know how to communicate important information and miss soft skills about understanding the context of an interview. If you say "I don't know" and talk through your thoughts then great. The point is talking things through, even if you have gotten the wrong answer. Maybe you'd be able to say "and here's how I'd code a simulation to check"
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
beeflet 2y ago
I don't work in the tech industry but I always assumed these questions were designed for you to demonstrate your problem-solving skills, regardless if you get the answer correct or not. In this case, it would just be showing that you can reason about binary search and showing that the mean profit is 0.20 dollars
noname120 2y ago
Well to be fair Steve Ballmer is a terrible leader and if he had to take the tech interviews he wouldn't have passed and Microsoft wouldn't have stagnated for 10 years, before Satya Nadella took over and brought the company back on its feet.
- ywvcbk 2y ago
  He’s probably a decent leader just not a very good CEO for a company that needs to develop new products and enter new markets to continue growing rather than to try and squeeze every remaining penny from their current customers.
- smolder 2y ago
  Satya Nadella has been good for the stock price and is probably a better leader than Ballmer, but hasn't made MS into a respectable company.
- high_na_euv 2y ago
  Many Satyas successes started under Ballmer.
  - noname120 2y ago
    Could you give some examples?
    - high_na_euv 2y ago
      Biggest one: Azure, then Bing https://blog.jovono.com/p/ballmer-microsoft-underrated https://blog.jovono.com/p/ballmer-microsoft-underrated
thih9 2y ago
As long as it's used to figure out if the two parties would enjoy working with each other, I guess it's fine. But yes, increasingly often this turns into a quiz or worse. At least we get some quality fiction like https://aphyr.com/posts/340-reversing-the-technical-interview https://aphyr.com/posts/340-reversing-the-technical-intervie... and its sequels.
TheCondor 2y ago
I think this is a good question, there are many veins of potential discussion which is what you want. It’s not likely a binary question. Is it fair? Does he change his choice or pre-record it? Can you play multiple times? Purely random distribution, totally fair? Sure play the game every time, the math pans out. It’s not that though. It’s about showing your work

And this, friends, is the perfect example of why the modern tech interview process is pure insanity.

by qarl 2y ago

And this, friends, is the perfect example of why the modern tech interview process is pure insanity.

weinzierl 2y ago

It is the perfect example, why you should pay attention in your math class too.

corimaith 2y ago
I don't think the average CS curriculum is going to cover advanced game theory. And you certainly aren't going to doing most linear programming on the spot in a interview.
- rustybolt 2y ago
  This is actually extremely basic game theory, but I agree that most CS programs would probably not cover it.

OmarShehata 2y ago

is it? If I was forced to ask this question as an interviewer, and the candidate said, "actually, you're wrong, here's why" that's a very good signal. Do most people not do this? (typically there's discussion with all the interviewers and it isn't just "did the candidate get the question right or not). I personally think a lot of big tech interview questions are dumb but I think the process isn't as broken as I thought, seeing it from both sides.

metabagel 2y ago
I suppose that telling the interviewer that they're wrong is a good way for the interviewee to test culture fit.
rustybolt 2y ago
> Do most people not do this? I'd say it's impossible to answer this question conclusively within the time frame of an interview. That makes it, in my opinion, a bad interview question. My answer to this question would be to show that I understand what it would take to answer this question correctly (you'd have to find a mixed strategy that has a positive expected value for every choice of number), I wouldn't be able to give a confident "yes" or "no" answer on the spot. I think that's the only correct answer. In practice, I think this question is advantegeous for those who confidently blurt out an answer and then make up a heuristic argument for it. But a heuristic argument can be found for both "yes" and "no".
carlmr 2y ago
>If I was forced to ask this question as an interviewer, and the candidate said, "actually, you're wrong, here's why" that's a very good signal. Do most people not do this? The question is whether Ballmers ego would allow him this flexibility if it's his own question. Some people might be very emotionally attached to the questions they created, but not so much to those they've been given as an interviewer. I've fared well pointing out issues with questions in the past and gotten the job. I'd try to be diplomatic about it though and not outright say they're wrong. Instead pointing out how with a classical binary search the expected value is negative, but there are strategies from game theory to deal with adversarial picks and here you could reach a positive expected value. Kind of a "yes, and..." approach. You acknowledge their view, and then you add a new perspective. But don't say they're wrong. Funny enough in situations where I suspect the interviewer was given the question it probably wouldn't have helped, not due to emotional attachment, but because the interviewer had a tenuous grasp of the topic themselves and couldn't stray from the script they were given.
qarl 2y ago
I think you're missing something. Presumably Balmer did ask this question. At least a few times. And yet he never heard of the correct answer, and believed the incorrect answer to be correct. That tells you that if anyone did say "actually, you're wrong" he never listened to them.

Jalad 2y ago

Is this a perfect example of broken modern tech interviews? Balmer's question seems fair for the complexity of the answer he was expecting. As the interviewee you would presumably provide the (mathematically) wrong answer, but you'd show your thinking along the way, including a small demonstration of CS principles. Keep in mind that Balmer had a long career, so if he ever asked this question, it was probably back in the 80s when no one expected you to come up with the complex solution outlined in the post. If you did outline the correct answer, that would be amazing, and you'd be an instant hire. But the question doesn't fundamentally seem broken to me because either answer (taking the bet or not) needs to be well justified.

langcss 2y ago
Yes because it is a question for a quant.
rustybolt 2y ago
The question seems like a mathematical one. What you're saying sounds to me like "your answer doesn't need to be correct, it just needs to sound reasonable". What you're filtering on with this question is good bullshitters. To me, the only reasonable to this question is "I don't know". I think even a mathematical genius like Terrence Tao would not be able to give you the answer to this on the spot. (Although I can also totally believe that he would instantly see this from some obscure theorem that only like 5 people on the planet know.)
- IanCal 2y ago
  No, it's about understanding what an interview is for. They're not trying to get the answer. They're trying to find out what you know, how you think and how you communicate. Do you spot that it's different with one Vs many plays? Do you spot the binary search? Do you spot that an adversarial opponent can push things? Can you clearly communicate these? If you just say "I don't know" and that's it you are showing you don't know how to communicate important information and miss soft skills about understanding the context of an interview. If you say "I don't know" and talk through your thoughts then great. The point is talking things through, even if you have gotten the wrong answer. Maybe you'd be able to say "and here's how I'd code a simulation to check"

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

beeflet 2y ago

I don't work in the tech industry but I always assumed these questions were designed for you to demonstrate your problem-solving skills, regardless if you get the answer correct or not. In this case, it would just be showing that you can reason about binary search and showing that the mean profit is 0.20 dollars

noname120 2y ago

Well to be fair Steve Ballmer is a terrible leader and if he had to take the tech interviews he wouldn't have passed and Microsoft wouldn't have stagnated for 10 years, before Satya Nadella took over and brought the company back on its feet.

ywvcbk 2y ago
He’s probably a decent leader just not a very good CEO for a company that needs to develop new products and enter new markets to continue growing rather than to try and squeeze every remaining penny from their current customers.
smolder 2y ago
Satya Nadella has been good for the stock price and is probably a better leader than Ballmer, but hasn't made MS into a respectable company.
high_na_euv 2y ago
Many Satyas successes started under Ballmer.
- noname120 2y ago
  Could you give some examples?
  - high_na_euv 2y ago
    Biggest one: Azure, then Bing https://blog.jovono.com/p/ballmer-microsoft-underrated https://blog.jovono.com/p/ballmer-microsoft-underrated

thih9 2y ago

As long as it's used to figure out if the two parties would enjoy working with each other, I guess it's fine. But yes, increasingly often this turns into a quiz or worse. At least we get some quality fiction like https://aphyr.com/posts/340-reversing-the-technical-interview https://aphyr.com/posts/340-reversing-the-technical-intervie... and its sequels.

TheCondor 2y ago

I think this is a good question, there are many veins of potential discussion which is what you want. It’s not likely a binary question. Is it fair? Does he change his choice or pre-record it? Can you play multiple times? Purely random distribution, totally fair? Sure play the game every time, the math pans out. It’s not that though. It’s about showing your work