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> it’s only used between trusted parties. Not sure about that. When I was living in Estonia, I paid for half of the things using bank transfer, from mobile pho

> it’s only used between trusted parties. Not sure about that. When I was living in Estonia, I paid for half of the things using bank transfer, from mobile phone bills to random online purchases.

lxgr 2y ago
Interesting, do you know how people deal with merchants not delivering goods/services, just ceasing to exist etc.? Anything postpaid, such as mobile phone bills, are usually fine, since the service has already been provided, so the customer is only settling a debt. I also generally have no issues pre-paying money via SEPA credit transfer to a merchant I've already successfully transacted with before, unless it's something bankruptcy-prone such as an airline, a contractor, a small online merchant etc. – many people have been bitten that way.
- notpushkin 2y ago
  I'm not sure about credit transfers (and things like Klarna / GoCardless), but with SEPA direct debit you supposedly can reverse any payment within 60 days, no questions asked. Though this brings the problem the other way around – now it’s the merchant who has to trust you!
  - lxgr 2y ago
    Exactly: For the same reason that consumers are unlikely to be comfortable sending a credit transfer to an untrusted merchant, merchants are unlikely to accept direct debits from untrusted consumer.
- 2Gkashmiri 2y ago
  We.. dont have that problem in India. You either buy small change stuff locally or from a physiCal shop for large purchases. Rest purchases are done on Amazon et al. On off merchants are dime a dozen here so that problem reallly doesn't arise. A family member recently made a bank transfer and got one digit wrong. We approached the bank. The refused to help since "the transaction was done intentionally and not due to hacking or similar thing) but they gave contact of the wrong recipient. We approached them and had them reverse it manually. Point is, you say an airline. They dont really go backrupt left and right all of a sudden. We make air tickets a week or two weeks at best before travel. Same for small online merchants. They really dont exist that much because amazon
  - lxgr 2y ago
    > Point is, you say an airline. They dont really go backrupt left and right all of a sudden. It's not that uncommon really, and it's usually a situation in which the last thing travelers need is having to worry about whether they'll have to pay their (usually much more expensive) replacement tickets completely out of pocket. > Rest purchases are done on Amazon et al. That sounds like a significant market inhibition mechanism then. One of the great advantages of the card chargeback mechanism is that it makes consumers much more willing to give new, smaller merchants a chance, because they know they can always get their money back if they don't deliver. Pre-payments only massively benefit encumbents, which is ultimately bad for competition and by extension prices. > A family member recently made a bank transfer and got one digit wrong. We approached the bank. The refused to help since "the transaction was done intentionally and not due to hacking or similar thing) but they gave contact of the wrong recipient. We approached them and had them reverse it manually. In SEPA, this only works if the funds are still there at the recipient's account, and even then the receiving bank has to consent to the reversal. In case of a fraudulent recipient, the chances of this working are almost zero (as fraudsters usually send the money onwards as quickly as possible).
    - 2Gkashmiri 2y ago
      Market inhibition is why govt is launching ondc. Look it up. Its federated online ecommerce. So hopefully that will improve the game and incumbents wont tower over the market.
      - lxgr 2y ago
        Interesting, thank you! ONDC does seem to add dispute resolution, which is exactly what's missing from "pure" SEPA credit transfer or direct debit to make it viable for untrusted online purchases. I've in the meantime found the actual Visa press release (TFA is pretty light on details), and their A2A solution does seem to add just that as well: https://www.visa.co.uk/about-visa/newsroom/press-releases.3340254.html https://www.visa.co.uk/about-visa/newsroom/press-releases.33...

> it’s only used between trusted parties. Not sure about that. When I was living in Estonia, I paid for half of the things using bank transfer, from mobile phone bills to random online purchases.

lxgr 2y ago

Interesting, do you know how people deal with merchants not delivering goods/services, just ceasing to exist etc.? Anything postpaid, such as mobile phone bills, are usually fine, since the service has already been provided, so the customer is only settling a debt. I also generally have no issues pre-paying money via SEPA credit transfer to a merchant I've already successfully transacted with before, unless it's something bankruptcy-prone such as an airline, a contractor, a small online merchant etc. – many people have been bitten that way.

notpushkin 2y ago
I'm not sure about credit transfers (and things like Klarna / GoCardless), but with SEPA direct debit you supposedly can reverse any payment within 60 days, no questions asked. Though this brings the problem the other way around – now it’s the merchant who has to trust you!
- lxgr 2y ago
  Exactly: For the same reason that consumers are unlikely to be comfortable sending a credit transfer to an untrusted merchant, merchants are unlikely to accept direct debits from untrusted consumer.
2Gkashmiri 2y ago
We.. dont have that problem in India. You either buy small change stuff locally or from a physiCal shop for large purchases. Rest purchases are done on Amazon et al. On off merchants are dime a dozen here so that problem reallly doesn't arise. A family member recently made a bank transfer and got one digit wrong. We approached the bank. The refused to help since "the transaction was done intentionally and not due to hacking or similar thing) but they gave contact of the wrong recipient. We approached them and had them reverse it manually. Point is, you say an airline. They dont really go backrupt left and right all of a sudden. We make air tickets a week or two weeks at best before travel. Same for small online merchants. They really dont exist that much because amazon
- lxgr 2y ago
  > Point is, you say an airline. They dont really go backrupt left and right all of a sudden. It's not that uncommon really, and it's usually a situation in which the last thing travelers need is having to worry about whether they'll have to pay their (usually much more expensive) replacement tickets completely out of pocket. > Rest purchases are done on Amazon et al. That sounds like a significant market inhibition mechanism then. One of the great advantages of the card chargeback mechanism is that it makes consumers much more willing to give new, smaller merchants a chance, because they know they can always get their money back if they don't deliver. Pre-payments only massively benefit encumbents, which is ultimately bad for competition and by extension prices. > A family member recently made a bank transfer and got one digit wrong. We approached the bank. The refused to help since "the transaction was done intentionally and not due to hacking or similar thing) but they gave contact of the wrong recipient. We approached them and had them reverse it manually. In SEPA, this only works if the funds are still there at the recipient's account, and even then the receiving bank has to consent to the reversal. In case of a fraudulent recipient, the chances of this working are almost zero (as fraudsters usually send the money onwards as quickly as possible).
  - 2Gkashmiri 2y ago
    Market inhibition is why govt is launching ondc. Look it up. Its federated online ecommerce. So hopefully that will improve the game and incumbents wont tower over the market.
    - lxgr 2y ago
      Interesting, thank you! ONDC does seem to add dispute resolution, which is exactly what's missing from "pure" SEPA credit transfer or direct debit to make it viable for untrusted online purchases. I've in the meantime found the actual Visa press release (TFA is pretty light on details), and their A2A solution does seem to add just that as well: https://www.visa.co.uk/about-visa/newsroom/press-releases.3340254.html https://www.visa.co.uk/about-visa/newsroom/press-releases.33...