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HR has a saying "employees don't leave jobs, they leave managers". Pay has motivated me to look for other jobs, but only after I was already worn out and frust

HR has a saying "employees don't leave jobs, they leave managers". Pay has motivated me to look for other jobs, but only after I was already worn out and frustrated with my current job. Switching jobs isn't like getting a new car or moving to a new apartment. It's traumatic, kind of like going through a break-up. You work with the same people for years and then suddenly you will never see them again. That isn't pleasant. If the pay is bad enough, I like to think I would leave anyways. But I think most people are given better reasons to leave their jobs and onto greener pastures. I wonder if LLMs would do a better job as managers, if they can make up for cognitive biases in humans. Managers treat new employees with lesser experience, with higher regard and respect than existing employees with longer experience that remained at that company for a long time. Switching jobs is also the best way to get a raise, due to managers being heavily biased towards obtaining new hires. On one hand, they're supposed to keep good performers, but on the other hand they're supposed to keep talent flowing in. Employees should then also try to keep their jobs best they can, while also searching for better jobs and not getting more attached to their employer than their employer is to them? Humans in general are too biased and faulty in their thinking. Sure, LLMs hallucinate and propagate existing bias in society, but at least they can maybe (in the future) evaluate employees and form more objective opinions towards existing staff and new hires? sounds better than humans winging it based on "vibes"?

ljlolel 2y ago
Still traumatic with remote?
- notepad0x90 2y ago
  When leaving jobs? For me it's even more traumatic. In-person working tends to come with a lot more drama, so leaving can be a relief in part. Remote working, at least for someone of my personality and slight obsession with technical matters, I could get more attached to like minded co-workers; with WFH I encounter minimal drama. But on this topic, pay is much less of an issue as well for WFH. I think I would put up with a lot more of undesirable work conditions remotely than in-person.
- kortilla 2y ago
  Yes. You bond with people when you communicate a lot with them, regardless of the medium.
- Arisaka1 2y ago
  You think unprofessional workplace interactions, lack of growth (personal or/and company), and micromanagement aren't bad because it happens to you while you're at home?
dataflow 2y ago
> HR has a saying "employees don't leave jobs, they leave managers". I'd say they leave people. The people aren't necessarily managers.
- notepad0x90 2y ago
  well, the thinking there is, managers manage people, so ultimately it is their failure to manage people that causes good performers to leave.
  - dataflow 2y ago
    I mean, that thinking is obviously wrong. Not everything is within your manager's power to fix. And people have different tolerances with how many headaches they put up with too. The manager might need much more time to improve things than their employee might tolerate.
    - notepad0x90 2y ago
      Those are good points, but at the end of the day, people issues are management issues. It may not be your specific manager that is responsible but the management of the company and HR, who are responsible for the work environment that is set. I'd imagine it is a business (think money) decision on how much time and effort is put into cultivating a reasonably tolerable work environment. if employees have unreasonable demands for their work environment, I agree, it is the employee's fault. But fault aside, even for unreasonable and overly sensitive employees, they're still leaving managers who can't or won't fix people issues in their teams, more often than not, with many many exceptions of course.
      - dataflow 2y ago
        If by "people leave managers" they mean anyone in the chain up to and including the CEO, then I guess? That's hardly a meaningful statement though, it's practically a tautology... the CEO is ultimately responsible for everything the company does, so whatever reason you have for leaving is their responsibility... by definition. I can't say I find a tautology like that to be a particularly insightful observation, but maybe I'm missing something.
shiroiushi 2y ago
>It's traumatic, kind of like going through a break-up. You work with the same people for years and then suddenly you will never see them again. That isn't pleasant. That depends on your co-workers. It may be more like getting a divorce from an abusive spouse.
- nxpnsv 2y ago
  Either way, unpleasant.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    How so? Getting out of a bad marriage isn't unpleasant at all. A bit traumatic perhaps, but that's like going through the trauma of major surgery so you can have your badly broken leg bolted together so you don't have to get an amputation or die of infection. The feeling of freedom and peace you get after getting out is worth the trauma of divorce. Same goes for getting out of a shitty job with bad coworkers or a bad boss.
    - nxpnsv 2y ago
      Sure, there is relief and a feeling this was necessary and for the best - but also broken dreams, failing social expectations, broken friendships. I guess I mostly agree with you, but I think such traumas make for unpleasant experiences...
      - shiroiushi 2y ago
        Sure, I agree with all that, but also I think it's simply part of life for many people. Not everyone has everything go well for them in life, and people frequently make bad decisions (I'll freely admit to that myself). What's important is how you handle things afterwards. For another example, look at someone who's a really bad drug addict, but then cleans himself up and turns his life around. Sure, it sucks that he had to go through that bad phase in his life and suffer many years (which could possibly be blamed on himself, though addiction is also a biological failing). But we generally like to celebrate these turn-around stories where someone takes a bad life situation and makes it much better. The ex-drug addict will probably always be scarred from his experiences, and always need to be very careful not to get into that trap again, but usually people are happy for him despite all that.
ttyprintk 2y ago
Consider the following: we don’t train LLM to optimize for a decision made on local context. That would cover a minimum viable manager-bot. We train on (admittedly flawed) context and offer decisions. Much closer to an executive advice bot. If given two checkpoints: your competitions manager bot, or your competitions executive advice bot, the latter is much more valuable.
soco 2y ago
If you train the LLM on today's practice, guess what, they will act exactly like today's managers, bias and faults inclusive.

ljlolel 2y ago

Still traumatic with remote?

notepad0x90 2y ago
When leaving jobs? For me it's even more traumatic. In-person working tends to come with a lot more drama, so leaving can be a relief in part. Remote working, at least for someone of my personality and slight obsession with technical matters, I could get more attached to like minded co-workers; with WFH I encounter minimal drama. But on this topic, pay is much less of an issue as well for WFH. I think I would put up with a lot more of undesirable work conditions remotely than in-person.
kortilla 2y ago
Yes. You bond with people when you communicate a lot with them, regardless of the medium.
Arisaka1 2y ago
You think unprofessional workplace interactions, lack of growth (personal or/and company), and micromanagement aren't bad because it happens to you while you're at home?

dataflow 2y ago

> HR has a saying "employees don't leave jobs, they leave managers". I'd say they leave people. The people aren't necessarily managers.

notepad0x90 2y ago
well, the thinking there is, managers manage people, so ultimately it is their failure to manage people that causes good performers to leave.
- dataflow 2y ago
  I mean, that thinking is obviously wrong. Not everything is within your manager's power to fix. And people have different tolerances with how many headaches they put up with too. The manager might need much more time to improve things than their employee might tolerate.
  - notepad0x90 2y ago
    Those are good points, but at the end of the day, people issues are management issues. It may not be your specific manager that is responsible but the management of the company and HR, who are responsible for the work environment that is set. I'd imagine it is a business (think money) decision on how much time and effort is put into cultivating a reasonably tolerable work environment. if employees have unreasonable demands for their work environment, I agree, it is the employee's fault. But fault aside, even for unreasonable and overly sensitive employees, they're still leaving managers who can't or won't fix people issues in their teams, more often than not, with many many exceptions of course.
    - dataflow 2y ago
      If by "people leave managers" they mean anyone in the chain up to and including the CEO, then I guess? That's hardly a meaningful statement though, it's practically a tautology... the CEO is ultimately responsible for everything the company does, so whatever reason you have for leaving is their responsibility... by definition. I can't say I find a tautology like that to be a particularly insightful observation, but maybe I'm missing something.

shiroiushi 2y ago

>It's traumatic, kind of like going through a break-up. You work with the same people for years and then suddenly you will never see them again. That isn't pleasant. That depends on your co-workers. It may be more like getting a divorce from an abusive spouse.

nxpnsv 2y ago
Either way, unpleasant.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  How so? Getting out of a bad marriage isn't unpleasant at all. A bit traumatic perhaps, but that's like going through the trauma of major surgery so you can have your badly broken leg bolted together so you don't have to get an amputation or die of infection. The feeling of freedom and peace you get after getting out is worth the trauma of divorce. Same goes for getting out of a shitty job with bad coworkers or a bad boss.
  - nxpnsv 2y ago
    Sure, there is relief and a feeling this was necessary and for the best - but also broken dreams, failing social expectations, broken friendships. I guess I mostly agree with you, but I think such traumas make for unpleasant experiences...
    - shiroiushi 2y ago
      Sure, I agree with all that, but also I think it's simply part of life for many people. Not everyone has everything go well for them in life, and people frequently make bad decisions (I'll freely admit to that myself). What's important is how you handle things afterwards. For another example, look at someone who's a really bad drug addict, but then cleans himself up and turns his life around. Sure, it sucks that he had to go through that bad phase in his life and suffer many years (which could possibly be blamed on himself, though addiction is also a biological failing). But we generally like to celebrate these turn-around stories where someone takes a bad life situation and makes it much better. The ex-drug addict will probably always be scarred from his experiences, and always need to be very careful not to get into that trap again, but usually people are happy for him despite all that.

ttyprintk 2y ago

Consider the following: we don’t train LLM to optimize for a decision made on local context. That would cover a minimum viable manager-bot. We train on (admittedly flawed) context and offer decisions. Much closer to an executive advice bot. If given two checkpoints: your competitions manager bot, or your competitions executive advice bot, the latter is much more valuable.

soco 2y ago

If you train the LLM on today's practice, guess what, they will act exactly like today's managers, bias and faults inclusive.