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So the way to make driving safer is to make roads more dangerous so people feel afraid of going too fast? Edit since there are multiple similar replies: I took

So the way to make driving safer is to make roads more dangerous so people feel afraid of going too fast? Edit since there are multiple similar replies: I took parent comment to include freeways.

mlavrent 2y ago
Counter-intuitively, yes, in fact. See the great article from Strong Towns, which does a lot of advocacy around building healthy towns: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2021/8/6/the-key-to-slowing-traffic-is-street-design-not-speed-limits https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2021/8/6/the-key-to-slow...
- cornstalks 2y ago
  That works for residential, but how about freeways?
  - sokoloff 2y ago
    Raise the speed limits such that they're closer to the actual typical speed of traffic, which will reduce the dangers posed to (and by) the "I drive the speed limit" crowd.
acdha 2y ago
It’s not more dangerous. It’s clearly limited: your driveway or a roundabout isn’t dangerous, but you don’t speed because it’s not super wide and you don’t expect it to be completely clear of people or things you don’t want to hit. Most traffic calming measures are similar: break up long sight lines, narrow the lanes, and tighten the corners so people look at the road and think “I’m driving past homes where pedestrians are” rather than “freeway, time to see if I can avoid dropping under the speed limit the whole way!”
hyrix 2y ago
The way to reduce speeds is not to make the road more dangerous but rather to signal the expected speed correctly. The article a sibling commenter linked makes this point: > [...] The premise is simple: drivers will make occasional mistakes—veer a bit out of their lane, fail to brake hard enough, etc.—-and if the street is wide, with high visibility in all directions, and free of immediate obstacles such as trees and fences, those mistakes won’t be catastrophic. The problem: this street feels too forgiving to a driver. Too safe and comfortable. So drivers speed up. The engineers didn’t account for this aspect of human psychology. Drivers behave as expected when they can't see around obstacles, the lane feels tight, and there are curves and other features that reduce visibility. These roads aren't inherently more dangerous, they just give drivers less margin for taking excessive risks.
foxyv 2y ago
Yup! Bonus points if you can make the road feel more dangerous without actually making it more dangerous. Obstacles that damage paint and bumpers or make disturbing noises without hurting occupants are great. Stuff like K-rails and Flexi-posts are perfect for this. Making roads curvy so that drivers have to maneuver. Making turns sharper and getting rid of slip lanes too.

So the way to make driving safer is to make roads more dangerous so people feel afraid of going too fast? Edit since there are multiple similar replies: I took parent comment to include freeways.

mlavrent 2y ago

Counter-intuitively, yes, in fact. See the great article from Strong Towns, which does a lot of advocacy around building healthy towns: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2021/8/6/the-key-to-slowing-traffic-is-street-design-not-speed-limits https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2021/8/6/the-key-to-slow...

cornstalks 2y ago
That works for residential, but how about freeways?
- sokoloff 2y ago
  Raise the speed limits such that they're closer to the actual typical speed of traffic, which will reduce the dangers posed to (and by) the "I drive the speed limit" crowd.

acdha 2y ago

It’s not more dangerous. It’s clearly limited: your driveway or a roundabout isn’t dangerous, but you don’t speed because it’s not super wide and you don’t expect it to be completely clear of people or things you don’t want to hit. Most traffic calming measures are similar: break up long sight lines, narrow the lanes, and tighten the corners so people look at the road and think “I’m driving past homes where pedestrians are” rather than “freeway, time to see if I can avoid dropping under the speed limit the whole way!”

hyrix 2y ago

The way to reduce speeds is not to make the road more dangerous but rather to signal the expected speed correctly. The article a sibling commenter linked makes this point: > [...] The premise is simple: drivers will make occasional mistakes—veer a bit out of their lane, fail to brake hard enough, etc.—-and if the street is wide, with high visibility in all directions, and free of immediate obstacles such as trees and fences, those mistakes won’t be catastrophic. The problem: this street feels too forgiving to a driver. Too safe and comfortable. So drivers speed up. The engineers didn’t account for this aspect of human psychology. Drivers behave as expected when they can't see around obstacles, the lane feels tight, and there are curves and other features that reduce visibility. These roads aren't inherently more dangerous, they just give drivers less margin for taking excessive risks.

foxyv 2y ago

Yup! Bonus points if you can make the road feel more dangerous without actually making it more dangerous. Obstacles that damage paint and bumpers or make disturbing noises without hurting occupants are great. Stuff like K-rails and Flexi-posts are perfect for this. Making roads curvy so that drivers have to maneuver. Making turns sharper and getting rid of slip lanes too.