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Why do they cost more? Is it the additional hardware needed for the charging? I have a hard time believing that hardware is $5k. I have an easier time believing

Why do they cost more? Is it the additional hardware needed for the charging? I have a hard time believing that hardware is $5k. I have an easier time believing that the car manufacturers are gouging people interested in this solution space. This seems like an easy win for legislation: we just mandate that every consumer vehicle has to have a 35-mile minimum all-battery range with plug-in capabilities; the same way we mandate that consumer vehicles have to have catalytic converters.

idontwantthis 2y ago
Mandating something doesn’t make it free. You mandate plugin then you just mandated that all cars cost $5000 (at least) more plus you removed downward price pressure from nonplugins so they will cost even more. It’s an entire second drive train and fuel system. It’s going to cost money. I also forgot to add in the fact that you still have full ICE maintenance costs with a plugin.
- AtlasBarfed 2y ago
  No it's not the same, I think you are taking cues from the current generations of hybrids which (aside from the Volt) are at best 20 miles all-electric and generally have full car drivetrains doing primary or heavily supplemental power. 1) A decent plugin hybrid has the EV drivetrain: fantastic low end torque and sufficient horsepower to do highway speeds, but without an oversized battery. With a bit of rocket equation, it should be 1/3 the size for a 50-100 mile all-electric EV, or less, considering that 500 mile EVs exist 2) the ICE part gets to run in atkinson cycle and at the ideal RPM for maximum efficiency: it exists to recharge the battery. I almost wonder if a lawnmower motor could generate enough recharge rate (especially if you had a "long range" mode where the recharger kicks in almost immediately after the first 10 miles to start recharging) considering the higher efficiency of modern EV drivetrains. 3) the braking is mostly regenerative, so out goes most brake maintenance. The engine runs at ideal RPMs, and only on long range trips, so the oil life is much longer: the ideal is the engine only runs on long distance trips, and close to 90-95% of miles (certainly in an urban setting, rural would still be heavily served by a battery if its 50-100 miles) are in all electric. It's pretty basic math, if the engine only runs 5% of the time and runs in highway efficiency only, then it's maintenance lifetime is probably 20x longer than a normal engine's use. 4) hopefully it would eventually transition to a fuel cell for more efficiency, flexible fueling, and zero-pollution (aside from carbon in the case of hydrocarbon fuel), which I think if hybrids were mandated 25 years ago would have had an outside chance of happening within 10 years.
  - idontwantthis 2y ago
    Do the math like I did. Go watts to watts to watts with the most efficient gas engine there can be. You’re not going to get much of an improvement. You’re still burning gas to charge a battery to turn into forward motion.
    - AtlasBarfed 2y ago
      You're pretending in-city inefficiency doesn't exist? The atkinson cycle doesn't exist? Turbocharging and combined cycle tricks (which can be used to boost efficiency / approach or exceed carnot limits I believe), other heat recovery/reuse (especially for A/C and heating), compact rotary engines, more precise combustion and timing, all of that can't be employed for a charging engine?
      - idontwantthis 2y ago
        I'm not pretending anything. A 3500 lb object moving at 60mph requires 57kw to to keep moving at that speed. If you have an engine producing less than that, then you're going to run out of energy, no matter how efficient it is. You brought up a "lawnmower motor" which produces at most 1/3 of that if you're talking about a gigantic riding mower. If you put a motor smaller than the wattage requirement then you can end up stuck with a full tank of gas, and a dead battery running your gas engine to slowly charge your vehicle. To the point of "ideal RPMs", my ICE car already does that on a flat highway and it doesn't suddenly double or triple it's mileage. It gets about 33, while the overall average is about 26. Go test it yourself. Find a stretch of highway where you can maintain 60mph without fluctuation, and see what "ideal rpm" means. My point in all of this has been lost anyway. My point is that the more efficient you make the gas engine of a plug in hybrid, the less important is the battery component. Plugins are not a bridge between ICE and EVs, and they are definitely not superior to either. They are a distraction.
- wffurr 2y ago
  >> I also forgot to add in the fact that you still have full ICE maintenance costs with a plugin. Hybrids significantly reduce wear and tear on the ICE engine. The Prius is one of the lowest total cost of ownership vehicles ever made. It still amazes me that Prius-style non-plug-in hybrids aren't standard equipment at this point across the entire vehicle fleet. With a plug-in hybrid, ICE maintenance costs are even lower, assuming it's actually plugged in, which apparently many aren't, per an EU analysis that lowered the effective WLTP mileage based on actual usage. The ICE in a regularly charged plug-in hybrid gets used so infrequently that they have "maintenance cycles" built in that fire up the ICE just to circulate the lubricant and gasoline.

idontwantthis 2y ago

Mandating something doesn’t make it free. You mandate plugin then you just mandated that all cars cost $5000 (at least) more plus you removed downward price pressure from nonplugins so they will cost even more. It’s an entire second drive train and fuel system. It’s going to cost money. I also forgot to add in the fact that you still have full ICE maintenance costs with a plugin.

AtlasBarfed 2y ago
No it's not the same, I think you are taking cues from the current generations of hybrids which (aside from the Volt) are at best 20 miles all-electric and generally have full car drivetrains doing primary or heavily supplemental power. 1) A decent plugin hybrid has the EV drivetrain: fantastic low end torque and sufficient horsepower to do highway speeds, but without an oversized battery. With a bit of rocket equation, it should be 1/3 the size for a 50-100 mile all-electric EV, or less, considering that 500 mile EVs exist 2) the ICE part gets to run in atkinson cycle and at the ideal RPM for maximum efficiency: it exists to recharge the battery. I almost wonder if a lawnmower motor could generate enough recharge rate (especially if you had a "long range" mode where the recharger kicks in almost immediately after the first 10 miles to start recharging) considering the higher efficiency of modern EV drivetrains. 3) the braking is mostly regenerative, so out goes most brake maintenance. The engine runs at ideal RPMs, and only on long range trips, so the oil life is much longer: the ideal is the engine only runs on long distance trips, and close to 90-95% of miles (certainly in an urban setting, rural would still be heavily served by a battery if its 50-100 miles) are in all electric. It's pretty basic math, if the engine only runs 5% of the time and runs in highway efficiency only, then it's maintenance lifetime is probably 20x longer than a normal engine's use. 4) hopefully it would eventually transition to a fuel cell for more efficiency, flexible fueling, and zero-pollution (aside from carbon in the case of hydrocarbon fuel), which I think if hybrids were mandated 25 years ago would have had an outside chance of happening within 10 years.
- idontwantthis 2y ago
  Do the math like I did. Go watts to watts to watts with the most efficient gas engine there can be. You’re not going to get much of an improvement. You’re still burning gas to charge a battery to turn into forward motion.
  - AtlasBarfed 2y ago
    You're pretending in-city inefficiency doesn't exist? The atkinson cycle doesn't exist? Turbocharging and combined cycle tricks (which can be used to boost efficiency / approach or exceed carnot limits I believe), other heat recovery/reuse (especially for A/C and heating), compact rotary engines, more precise combustion and timing, all of that can't be employed for a charging engine?
    - idontwantthis 2y ago
      I'm not pretending anything. A 3500 lb object moving at 60mph requires 57kw to to keep moving at that speed. If you have an engine producing less than that, then you're going to run out of energy, no matter how efficient it is. You brought up a "lawnmower motor" which produces at most 1/3 of that if you're talking about a gigantic riding mower. If you put a motor smaller than the wattage requirement then you can end up stuck with a full tank of gas, and a dead battery running your gas engine to slowly charge your vehicle. To the point of "ideal RPMs", my ICE car already does that on a flat highway and it doesn't suddenly double or triple it's mileage. It gets about 33, while the overall average is about 26. Go test it yourself. Find a stretch of highway where you can maintain 60mph without fluctuation, and see what "ideal rpm" means. My point in all of this has been lost anyway. My point is that the more efficient you make the gas engine of a plug in hybrid, the less important is the battery component. Plugins are not a bridge between ICE and EVs, and they are definitely not superior to either. They are a distraction.
wffurr 2y ago
>> I also forgot to add in the fact that you still have full ICE maintenance costs with a plugin. Hybrids significantly reduce wear and tear on the ICE engine. The Prius is one of the lowest total cost of ownership vehicles ever made. It still amazes me that Prius-style non-plug-in hybrids aren't standard equipment at this point across the entire vehicle fleet. With a plug-in hybrid, ICE maintenance costs are even lower, assuming it's actually plugged in, which apparently many aren't, per an EU analysis that lowered the effective WLTP mileage based on actual usage. The ICE in a regularly charged plug-in hybrid gets used so infrequently that they have "maintenance cycles" built in that fire up the ICE just to circulate the lubricant and gasoline.