4 ms·

> Your point is fair, but this is a problem to be solved, not to throw up our hands and say it is impossible. I don't think anyone is saying it's impossible. T

> Your point is fair, but this is a problem to be solved, not to throw up our hands and say it is impossible. I don't think anyone is saying it's impossible. They're saying it's a problem right now, and that's a large part of why so many people avoid EVs. If someone figures out a way to mitigate that problem tomorrow, then the equation changes. But tomorrow isn't here today, and people have needs to met today.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
And if the problem is solved and people still choose hybrids or combustion vehicles? You can solve All The Problems and humans can still make irrational, suboptimal choices. What is good enough to make the lizard brain cozy with the EV choice? Not rhetorical! Genuinely interested in the thought.
- JohnFen 2y ago
  > And if the problem is solved and people still choose hybrids? If that's the case, then there's still a problem that hasn't been adequately solved. But that's a hypothetical. The reality is that there are real, nonimaginary showstopper problems right now.
- toast0 2y ago
  Here's my lizard brain issue: owning and using an EV requires more planning / is less flexible at least while liquid fuel is so easily accessible. With liquid fueled vehicles, I can park them wherever at home. If I had an EV, I'd need to pick a spot and always park it there when I want to charge it. If that's inside the garage, I need to keep the garage clean or I can't charge, etc. It's better if I charge with 120v cause I can plug it in anywhere, but then charging is slow. Even if I usually park my liquid fueled vehicle in the garage, I can park it outside for a week or two if I take a big delivery for a group buy and need to have everyone else come and pick it up. If I move, I have to be picky about where I move; if there's no charging infrastructure, my car turns into a pumpkin. If I go on a long trip, I need to plan for charging on the way and my destination. From experience with my PHEV, I need to be extra careful because some chargers are impossible to use because their payment system doesn't work; some chargers are impossible to use because they've gone wireless (I seriously saw a charger at a mall that had no cable, wtf). Driving a liquid fueled vehicle, if the gauge works, I don't need to plan for fueling unless driving through undeveloped areas and there's usually signs like 'no services for 78 miles'. Even without a working gauge, if you keep a gas can, running out of fuel in a developed area is easy to recover from, especially now when you can open a map on your phone and know which way to walk. There's a car I'm interested in being revealed next month, but it's almost certainly EV only, so it's going to be a no. I don't want to have to think about how to fuel my vehicle. Also, market rate EV charging out and about seems to be about 2x home electricity prices near me, which means I'd be grumpy if I charged away from home.
  - floxy 2y ago
    >There's a car I'm interested in being revealed next month, but it's almost certainly EV only Care to share what car that is? Always looking to see what's up and coming.
    - toast0 2y ago
      The new Scout. My first car was a 1978 Scout II, and I'm actually car shopping at the moment, so it could work. This week they said they're going to have a reveal October 24. I am dumb enough to buy a first model year vehicle. I had the 2017 Chrysler Pacifica (which I ditched earlier this year because of signs of engine failure), and I have a deposit on a Lexus TX (currently under stop sale because of a pending airbag fix), but I'm still shopping if I only have a deposit down.
- fnordpiglet 2y ago
  People still buy mechanical watches despite the fact that a solid state watch tuned to an atomic clock via gps is in every way better. In fact they pay a ton of money for the luxury of a worse device! But as a proportion of all clocks mechanical clocks are effectively non existent.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    Watches don’t contribute to climate change.
    - defrost 2y ago
      EV and non-EV cars both do, and the choice to have and own a "classic" non-EV {muscle car | spaceship fin styling | 1930s steam powered racing car, etc.} is similar to the choice to have a "classic" mechanic watch .. which would be the point made in the comment you replied to. In the overall big picture of timekeeping and transportation the proportion of fully wooden complication watches and Mad Max interceptors would ideally be relatively low. ( but rolling coal will remain popular for some years to come )
      - fnordpiglet 2y ago
        And the thread overall is about EVs being drastically simpler machines give them an insurmountable long term advantage to the point that ICE will become anachronistic, and hybrids are even worse than ICE for their complexity. The environmental angle is a non-sequitur. I would note that EVs are much more likely to have a minimal environmental impact over time as the requisite is electrical storage, not a specific way to store electricity. As electro magnetism is a fundamental property of the universe the ways we achieve that are limitless. Carbon based fuel is pretty much the only meaningful ICE option so there’s not much to improve on there beyond marginal efficiency gains. (I mean I guess we could use liquid fuels like oxygen and hydrogen but that seems unlikely). N.b,. Hydrogen fuel cells are still electric vehicles.
        defrost 2y ago

toomuchtodo 2y ago

And if the problem is solved and people still choose hybrids or combustion vehicles? You can solve All The Problems and humans can still make irrational, suboptimal choices. What is good enough to make the lizard brain cozy with the EV choice? Not rhetorical! Genuinely interested in the thought.

JohnFen 2y ago
> And if the problem is solved and people still choose hybrids? If that's the case, then there's still a problem that hasn't been adequately solved. But that's a hypothetical. The reality is that there are real, nonimaginary showstopper problems right now.
toast0 2y ago
Here's my lizard brain issue: owning and using an EV requires more planning / is less flexible at least while liquid fuel is so easily accessible. With liquid fueled vehicles, I can park them wherever at home. If I had an EV, I'd need to pick a spot and always park it there when I want to charge it. If that's inside the garage, I need to keep the garage clean or I can't charge, etc. It's better if I charge with 120v cause I can plug it in anywhere, but then charging is slow. Even if I usually park my liquid fueled vehicle in the garage, I can park it outside for a week or two if I take a big delivery for a group buy and need to have everyone else come and pick it up. If I move, I have to be picky about where I move; if there's no charging infrastructure, my car turns into a pumpkin. If I go on a long trip, I need to plan for charging on the way and my destination. From experience with my PHEV, I need to be extra careful because some chargers are impossible to use because their payment system doesn't work; some chargers are impossible to use because they've gone wireless (I seriously saw a charger at a mall that had no cable, wtf). Driving a liquid fueled vehicle, if the gauge works, I don't need to plan for fueling unless driving through undeveloped areas and there's usually signs like 'no services for 78 miles'. Even without a working gauge, if you keep a gas can, running out of fuel in a developed area is easy to recover from, especially now when you can open a map on your phone and know which way to walk. There's a car I'm interested in being revealed next month, but it's almost certainly EV only, so it's going to be a no. I don't want to have to think about how to fuel my vehicle. Also, market rate EV charging out and about seems to be about 2x home electricity prices near me, which means I'd be grumpy if I charged away from home.
- floxy 2y ago
  >There's a car I'm interested in being revealed next month, but it's almost certainly EV only Care to share what car that is? Always looking to see what's up and coming.
  - toast0 2y ago
    The new Scout. My first car was a 1978 Scout II, and I'm actually car shopping at the moment, so it could work. This week they said they're going to have a reveal October 24. I am dumb enough to buy a first model year vehicle. I had the 2017 Chrysler Pacifica (which I ditched earlier this year because of signs of engine failure), and I have a deposit on a Lexus TX (currently under stop sale because of a pending airbag fix), but I'm still shopping if I only have a deposit down.
fnordpiglet 2y ago
People still buy mechanical watches despite the fact that a solid state watch tuned to an atomic clock via gps is in every way better. In fact they pay a ton of money for the luxury of a worse device! But as a proportion of all clocks mechanical clocks are effectively non existent.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  Watches don’t contribute to climate change.
  - defrost 2y ago
    EV and non-EV cars both do, and the choice to have and own a "classic" non-EV {muscle car | spaceship fin styling | 1930s steam powered racing car, etc.} is similar to the choice to have a "classic" mechanic watch .. which would be the point made in the comment you replied to. In the overall big picture of timekeeping and transportation the proportion of fully wooden complication watches and Mad Max interceptors would ideally be relatively low. ( but rolling coal will remain popular for some years to come )
    - fnordpiglet 2y ago
      And the thread overall is about EVs being drastically simpler machines give them an insurmountable long term advantage to the point that ICE will become anachronistic, and hybrids are even worse than ICE for their complexity. The environmental angle is a non-sequitur. I would note that EVs are much more likely to have a minimal environmental impact over time as the requisite is electrical storage, not a specific way to store electricity. As electro magnetism is a fundamental property of the universe the ways we achieve that are limitless. Carbon based fuel is pretty much the only meaningful ICE option so there’s not much to improve on there beyond marginal efficiency gains. (I mean I guess we could use liquid fuels like oxygen and hydrogen but that seems unlikely). N.b,. Hydrogen fuel cells are still electric vehicles.
      - defrost 2y ago