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It doesn't matter what economic theory you dress it up in: chargers are often broken for months, and clearly not only are people not acting on a visual inspecti

by jen20 2y ago

It doesn't matter what economic theory you dress it up in: chargers are often broken for months, and clearly not only are people not acting on a visual inspection, but aren't even acting on specific reports. As I understand it, the model for gas stations (in the US) is making small margins on gas, and huge margins on candy bars and bottles of water. There's no reason that can't be the same for chargers - indeed there's space for lounge style business models instead - no-one wants to sit in their car out by the dumpsters at Target for 30 minutes. I agree though - Electrify America is failing. It doesn't matter why, it's still a huge negative for EV adoption in a large number of cases, and those who claim "EVs are perfect for everyone" need to start communicating that nuance, or it should be assumed they don't understand it and should have their opinion discounted.

WorldMaker 2y ago
Sure, I agree with you, and think that is a lot of what I'm hinting at. I think the business model is wrong for Electrify America. They are building "stations" often divorced from any other businesses. I still think Destination chargers are more important than "along the way chargers" and in general reframing even "along the way chargers" as Destination Chargers should have been the business model (could still be the business model for someone savvy enough to invest in it). It shouldn't have been "Electrify America" it should have been "Electrify McDonald's" (or Applebee's or Sonic Drive-In; that one even already has the form factor of a charging lot). Take a national chain that already wants to be at every interstate exit, encourage them to electrify every parking space in a way that their minimum wage staff can keep an eye on without too much effort, in exchange for extra foot traffic and encouraging people to spend on meals and such while they wait on a charge. (My belief that Destination Charging matters a lot more than "along the way" is also where I see "EVs are already perfect for everyone, they just don't know it yet". I understand there is a ton of momentum in the existing mindset of a gas car and central gas stations and regular visits to those. I think Destination Charging and Home Charging and Everywhere Else Charging are an entirely different mindset, and it's an education problem that we're stuck trying to recreate the status quo rather than build the new awesome.)
- jen20 2y ago
  It's nothing to do with "gas mindset" - if I'm driving 1000 miles (not uncommon, welcome to Texas!) I'm going to have to stop to charge even the longest-range EVs along the way twice. One of those might be an overnight at a hotel (where the chargers are typically broken!), but the second is necessarily going to be somewhere en route. I agree it would be better to have them with amenities rather than in the back lot of a big box store, but that is not the current reality - even superchargers often lack amenities. This makes EVs very much non-ideal compared to a gas car or hybrid for this use case. No amount of noisy people wanting destination charging and home charging to be The Thing is going to fix that - it's just gaslighting to suggest that it's a mindset problem rather than a real one that must be solved if EVs are to dominate.
  - WorldMaker 2y ago
    I'd avoid using a charged term like "gaslighting" in this particular conversation. From my perspective, Superchargers lacking amenities is still the "mindset bug" and Hotels allowing chargers to be broken is the "mindset bug". I'm not telling you at all to fix Texas and not drive 1000 miles regularly (though that's certainly not ideal), I'm just wishing there were more things to do with your charging time in the middle of that mess and a better usage of your car's time spent parked at both ends of your journey. I think we fix the experience by encouraging parking lot owners of every kind, hotels especially, that charging is an amenity that makes a difference to the customer experience. We don't need every interstate exit to have a desolate "charging station" with no amenities, we need charging considered an amenity to parking. It would be nice to be able to regularly and culturally think of a 1000 mile journey as "I need to park somewhere for ~30 minutes to eat/relax/play/stretch/whatever" and charging just happens while you do that. This could be the revenge era of the Roadside Attraction giving you reason to pick one place to stop and charge over another. 30 minutes of time to spend in a silly museum to the world's largest rubber band ball is a fun use of that time. Sure it would get old doing it regularly, but that's why you want more and more things to be Destinations. Restaurants, Roadside Attractions, Scenic Parks, etc, should all have charging as an amenity. Charging shouldn't be bland "stations" needing amenities, charging should be the reliable amenity to any other detour or pitstop you'd want to do on the road. It should be wall plugs that blend into the background anywhere you might want to park, not "Special Pumps" you have to seek out and wait for because electrons need to pretend to be siloed in tanks like a liquid fuel.
SoftTalker 2y ago
Isn’t Electrify America part of the VW diesel settlement? That explains why it sucks, because the owner doesn’t care about it.
- jen20 2y ago
  Sure. The non-supercharger alternatives aren’t much better though.

by jen20 2y ago

WorldMaker 2y ago

Sure, I agree with you, and think that is a lot of what I'm hinting at. I think the business model is wrong for Electrify America. They are building "stations" often divorced from any other businesses. I still think Destination chargers are more important than "along the way chargers" and in general reframing even "along the way chargers" as Destination Chargers should have been the business model (could still be the business model for someone savvy enough to invest in it). It shouldn't have been "Electrify America" it should have been "Electrify McDonald's" (or Applebee's or Sonic Drive-In; that one even already has the form factor of a charging lot). Take a national chain that already wants to be at every interstate exit, encourage them to electrify every parking space in a way that their minimum wage staff can keep an eye on without too much effort, in exchange for extra foot traffic and encouraging people to spend on meals and such while they wait on a charge. (My belief that Destination Charging matters a lot more than "along the way" is also where I see "EVs are already perfect for everyone, they just don't know it yet". I understand there is a ton of momentum in the existing mindset of a gas car and central gas stations and regular visits to those. I think Destination Charging and Home Charging and Everywhere Else Charging are an entirely different mindset, and it's an education problem that we're stuck trying to recreate the status quo rather than build the new awesome.)

jen20 2y ago
It's nothing to do with "gas mindset" - if I'm driving 1000 miles (not uncommon, welcome to Texas!) I'm going to have to stop to charge even the longest-range EVs along the way twice. One of those might be an overnight at a hotel (where the chargers are typically broken!), but the second is necessarily going to be somewhere en route. I agree it would be better to have them with amenities rather than in the back lot of a big box store, but that is not the current reality - even superchargers often lack amenities. This makes EVs very much non-ideal compared to a gas car or hybrid for this use case. No amount of noisy people wanting destination charging and home charging to be The Thing is going to fix that - it's just gaslighting to suggest that it's a mindset problem rather than a real one that must be solved if EVs are to dominate.
- WorldMaker 2y ago
  I'd avoid using a charged term like "gaslighting" in this particular conversation. From my perspective, Superchargers lacking amenities is still the "mindset bug" and Hotels allowing chargers to be broken is the "mindset bug". I'm not telling you at all to fix Texas and not drive 1000 miles regularly (though that's certainly not ideal), I'm just wishing there were more things to do with your charging time in the middle of that mess and a better usage of your car's time spent parked at both ends of your journey. I think we fix the experience by encouraging parking lot owners of every kind, hotels especially, that charging is an amenity that makes a difference to the customer experience. We don't need every interstate exit to have a desolate "charging station" with no amenities, we need charging considered an amenity to parking. It would be nice to be able to regularly and culturally think of a 1000 mile journey as "I need to park somewhere for ~30 minutes to eat/relax/play/stretch/whatever" and charging just happens while you do that. This could be the revenge era of the Roadside Attraction giving you reason to pick one place to stop and charge over another. 30 minutes of time to spend in a silly museum to the world's largest rubber band ball is a fun use of that time. Sure it would get old doing it regularly, but that's why you want more and more things to be Destinations. Restaurants, Roadside Attractions, Scenic Parks, etc, should all have charging as an amenity. Charging shouldn't be bland "stations" needing amenities, charging should be the reliable amenity to any other detour or pitstop you'd want to do on the road. It should be wall plugs that blend into the background anywhere you might want to park, not "Special Pumps" you have to seek out and wait for because electrons need to pretend to be siloed in tanks like a liquid fuel.

SoftTalker 2y ago

Isn’t Electrify America part of the VW diesel settlement? That explains why it sucks, because the owner doesn’t care about it.

jen20 2y ago
Sure. The non-supercharger alternatives aren’t much better though.