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Chargers should need a lot less maintenance than pumps. They are over-sized, ugly electrical outlets with maybe extra capacitors and a bit of battery. Most of t

Chargers should need a lot less maintenance than pumps. They are over-sized, ugly electrical outlets with maybe extra capacitors and a bit of battery. Most of the "maintenance issues" that take the dumb things down are payments software goofiness or vandalism. The charging networks just need to calm their apps for the first bit, and regular, simple visual inspections for the second bit. The reasons pumps get fixed within days is because they make more money and also require regular inspections by law because they are a fire hazard or worse if left broken. The "Supercharger" network has regular inspections because it makes the most money right now. Right now we don't want to regulate the charging networks and a broken charger isn't a fire hazard or public safety danger to force regulation, so we have to count on "it makes more money if it is working" and it is Electrify America (et al) that are doing a terrible job at competing with "Supercharger" basics. (The "free market" is supposed to do that all on its own, right?~) But also, the big reason that there isn't the same money in chargers as in gas pumps is how different the equation with home charging available to many, even if not available to "all". It's a different market/ball game from gas pumps no matter what, because electricity is not a centralized fuel source in anything like the gas model, no matter how much you dress up chargers in gas station drag.

jen20 2y ago
It doesn't matter what economic theory you dress it up in: chargers are often broken for months, and clearly not only are people not acting on a visual inspection, but aren't even acting on specific reports. As I understand it, the model for gas stations (in the US) is making small margins on gas, and huge margins on candy bars and bottles of water. There's no reason that can't be the same for chargers - indeed there's space for lounge style business models instead - no-one wants to sit in their car out by the dumpsters at Target for 30 minutes. I agree though - Electrify America is failing. It doesn't matter why, it's still a huge negative for EV adoption in a large number of cases, and those who claim "EVs are perfect for everyone" need to start communicating that nuance, or it should be assumed they don't understand it and should have their opinion discounted.
- WorldMaker 2y ago
  Sure, I agree with you, and think that is a lot of what I'm hinting at. I think the business model is wrong for Electrify America. They are building "stations" often divorced from any other businesses. I still think Destination chargers are more important than "along the way chargers" and in general reframing even "along the way chargers" as Destination Chargers should have been the business model (could still be the business model for someone savvy enough to invest in it). It shouldn't have been "Electrify America" it should have been "Electrify McDonald's" (or Applebee's or Sonic Drive-In; that one even already has the form factor of a charging lot). Take a national chain that already wants to be at every interstate exit, encourage them to electrify every parking space in a way that their minimum wage staff can keep an eye on without too much effort, in exchange for extra foot traffic and encouraging people to spend on meals and such while they wait on a charge. (My belief that Destination Charging matters a lot more than "along the way" is also where I see "EVs are already perfect for everyone, they just don't know it yet". I understand there is a ton of momentum in the existing mindset of a gas car and central gas stations and regular visits to those. I think Destination Charging and Home Charging and Everywhere Else Charging are an entirely different mindset, and it's an education problem that we're stuck trying to recreate the status quo rather than build the new awesome.)
  - jen20 2y ago
    It's nothing to do with "gas mindset" - if I'm driving 1000 miles (not uncommon, welcome to Texas!) I'm going to have to stop to charge even the longest-range EVs along the way twice. One of those might be an overnight at a hotel (where the chargers are typically broken!), but the second is necessarily going to be somewhere en route. I agree it would be better to have them with amenities rather than in the back lot of a big box store, but that is not the current reality - even superchargers often lack amenities. This makes EVs very much non-ideal compared to a gas car or hybrid for this use case. No amount of noisy people wanting destination charging and home charging to be The Thing is going to fix that - it's just gaslighting to suggest that it's a mindset problem rather than a real one that must be solved if EVs are to dominate.
    - 2y ago
zihotki 2y ago
But there are many more chargers than tank stations. And there are a lot of electronic components which could fail due to age, weather or cheapness (economy of scale), the charging station is a complicated product. One pump will serve many dozens of people per day, way more than a charger. There is just not enough motivation for business to properly maintain them, I totally agree.
- WorldMaker 2y ago
  > the charging station is a complicated product No, it's not. We've got the workings of electric plugs and electric circuits down to a science in the 19th century. Higher voltage complicates things a bit, but not nearly as much as most people think, and again we've had the technology for that for decades and decades at this point. Most of the parts of an electrical circuit/outlet are solid state and don't hardly age/weather at all. You are more at risk of someone stripping it for parts (like copper wiring and capacitors) than it failing due to age. We accidentally let "car safety standards" turn a boring electrical outlet into a gas pump-looking plug that looks way more complex than it actually is. A charger is a fancy electrical outlet with a weird costume, and then often over-complicated payment software installed on top. That's most of how "complicated" it is, just over-complicated payment software on USB Power Delivery High Voltage Edition ports.

jen20 2y ago

It doesn't matter what economic theory you dress it up in: chargers are often broken for months, and clearly not only are people not acting on a visual inspection, but aren't even acting on specific reports. As I understand it, the model for gas stations (in the US) is making small margins on gas, and huge margins on candy bars and bottles of water. There's no reason that can't be the same for chargers - indeed there's space for lounge style business models instead - no-one wants to sit in their car out by the dumpsters at Target for 30 minutes. I agree though - Electrify America is failing. It doesn't matter why, it's still a huge negative for EV adoption in a large number of cases, and those who claim "EVs are perfect for everyone" need to start communicating that nuance, or it should be assumed they don't understand it and should have their opinion discounted.

WorldMaker 2y ago
Sure, I agree with you, and think that is a lot of what I'm hinting at. I think the business model is wrong for Electrify America. They are building "stations" often divorced from any other businesses. I still think Destination chargers are more important than "along the way chargers" and in general reframing even "along the way chargers" as Destination Chargers should have been the business model (could still be the business model for someone savvy enough to invest in it). It shouldn't have been "Electrify America" it should have been "Electrify McDonald's" (or Applebee's or Sonic Drive-In; that one even already has the form factor of a charging lot). Take a national chain that already wants to be at every interstate exit, encourage them to electrify every parking space in a way that their minimum wage staff can keep an eye on without too much effort, in exchange for extra foot traffic and encouraging people to spend on meals and such while they wait on a charge. (My belief that Destination Charging matters a lot more than "along the way" is also where I see "EVs are already perfect for everyone, they just don't know it yet". I understand there is a ton of momentum in the existing mindset of a gas car and central gas stations and regular visits to those. I think Destination Charging and Home Charging and Everywhere Else Charging are an entirely different mindset, and it's an education problem that we're stuck trying to recreate the status quo rather than build the new awesome.)
- jen20 2y ago
  It's nothing to do with "gas mindset" - if I'm driving 1000 miles (not uncommon, welcome to Texas!) I'm going to have to stop to charge even the longest-range EVs along the way twice. One of those might be an overnight at a hotel (where the chargers are typically broken!), but the second is necessarily going to be somewhere en route. I agree it would be better to have them with amenities rather than in the back lot of a big box store, but that is not the current reality - even superchargers often lack amenities. This makes EVs very much non-ideal compared to a gas car or hybrid for this use case. No amount of noisy people wanting destination charging and home charging to be The Thing is going to fix that - it's just gaslighting to suggest that it's a mindset problem rather than a real one that must be solved if EVs are to dominate.
  - 2y ago

zihotki 2y ago

But there are many more chargers than tank stations. And there are a lot of electronic components which could fail due to age, weather or cheapness (economy of scale), the charging station is a complicated product. One pump will serve many dozens of people per day, way more than a charger. There is just not enough motivation for business to properly maintain them, I totally agree.

WorldMaker 2y ago
> the charging station is a complicated product No, it's not. We've got the workings of electric plugs and electric circuits down to a science in the 19th century. Higher voltage complicates things a bit, but not nearly as much as most people think, and again we've had the technology for that for decades and decades at this point. Most of the parts of an electrical circuit/outlet are solid state and don't hardly age/weather at all. You are more at risk of someone stripping it for parts (like copper wiring and capacitors) than it failing due to age. We accidentally let "car safety standards" turn a boring electrical outlet into a gas pump-looking plug that looks way more complex than it actually is. A charger is a fancy electrical outlet with a weird costume, and then often over-complicated payment software installed on top. That's most of how "complicated" it is, just over-complicated payment software on USB Power Delivery High Voltage Edition ports.