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I live in a cotton mill built in the 1800s. It's a historic property registered with my state, and we can't make many changes to it. Even the concrete pavement

I live in a cotton mill built in the 1800s. It's a historic property registered with my state, and we can't make many changes to it. Even the concrete pavement is designated as "historic" (everyone finds that ridiculous). Given these parameters, we've only managed to install two EV charging stations for well over a thousand residents. It's wholly inadequate for the 20+ Teslas we have on campus. The problem for me is that I have ADHD. It's extremely easy for me to forget things like removing my car from the loading zone, so there's no way in hell I'd be compatible with going in and out to constantly move my car around. I'd either never get my car charged, or I'd piss off everyone for leaving it parked in charging for days. Even if the governing body somehow relented and we could install dozens of charging points, it still wouldn't alleviate the problem for me. There's no way I could organize my life around the ceremony of charging. EVs just don't work for some people. The math might look right on paper, but the shape of reality has more dimensionality to it.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
Your point is fair, but this is a problem to be solved, not to throw up our hands and say it is impossible. EVs work for many people and use cases today; those for which they don't are the body of work to work towards solutions. I recently worked, for free on my own time, to help a condo association to plan and install infrastructure to support 200 charging stations across two buildings with ~100 units. Total time investment was ~8 hours. A few folks paid to plug into that infra, but those buildings are now future proof. If you want help, I can reach out; let me know. We will electrify all the things, because we must [1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41453394 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41453394
- tharmas 2y ago
  How about another problem: supply of electricity and then its price? For those of us who don't drive but use electricity, we are going to experience much higher prices of electricity when the masses are forced to drive electric cars. I don't think much thought has gone into planning for this huge demand. The other problem i see with electric cars is the how long it takes to charge. I'm sure people will respond and say that's just another problem to solve but I just don't see charging ever being as fast as filling up at a gas station. Clearly the activity of using an electric car is going to be different from how an ICE powered car has been used. Has anyone written about this?
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    > An analysis by KPMG says the U.S. currently has enough generating capability to charge 80 million EVs during overnight hours—hence the need to control when cars are charged. The Edison Electric Institute estimates there could be 26 million EVs on the road by 2030, up from about 3.2 million today. [1] [2] Most people will charge overnight (either at home or the office), the average daily round trip commute is ~40 miles (1-2 hours of charging at a level 2 charger to replenish this range, depending on current available). Fast DC charging can be performed in 15-20 minutes, depending on state of charge of the battery and the charging station. My Tesla, when supercharging at the grocery store, is finished faster than I finish shopping (for example). [1] https://assets.kpmg.com/content/dam/kpmg/xx/pdf/2023/07/charging-ahead-addressing-the-ev-cost-hurdle.pdf https://assets.kpmg.com/content/dam/kpmg/xx/pdf/2023/07/char... [2] https://www.wsj.com/articles/url-us-power-grid-electric-vehicles-ev-charging-11675444994 https://www.wsj.com/articles/url-us-power-grid-electric-vehi...
    - tharmas 2y ago
      Thanks for the links. I should have included AI in my Doomsday scenario. AI is very power hungry. Of course AI server farms will not be spread out the way electric charging stations are but will be more concentrated but I do know tech CEO's are already looking at Canada to supply the expected electricity demand. That suggests to me there isn't enough capacity in the USA to meet that forecasted demand. >My Tesla, when supercharging at the grocery store, is finished faster than I finish shopping (for example). Where I'm at, the number of charging stations at the grocery store is already inadequate. They are always full. I see people with electric cars wanting to "get a spot" with a charger and there isn't any. This is what I mean about the lack of planning. The govt assumes that the market will meet demand but I just think mandating all cars be electric and relying on the market to meet that sudden demand is naïve.
      - toomuchtodo 2y ago
        Conversely, it is silly that we simply default to combustion vehicles because they are easy and we are lazy. Work is hard, and nothing in this thread described cannot be solved with existing technology. Maybe we could be less lazy? Maybe!
- JohnFen 2y ago
  > Your point is fair, but this is a problem to be solved, not to throw up our hands and say it is impossible. I don't think anyone is saying it's impossible. They're saying it's a problem right now, and that's a large part of why so many people avoid EVs. If someone figures out a way to mitigate that problem tomorrow, then the equation changes. But tomorrow isn't here today, and people have needs to met today.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    And if the problem is solved and people still choose hybrids or combustion vehicles? You can solve All The Problems and humans can still make irrational, suboptimal choices. What is good enough to make the lizard brain cozy with the EV choice? Not rhetorical! Genuinely interested in the thought.
    - JohnFen 2y ago
      > And if the problem is solved and people still choose hybrids? If that's the case, then there's still a problem that hasn't been adequately solved. But that's a hypothetical. The reality is that there are real, nonimaginary showstopper problems right now.
    - toast0 2y ago
      Here's my lizard brain issue: owning and using an EV requires more planning / is less flexible at least while liquid fuel is so easily accessible. With liquid fueled vehicles, I can park them wherever at home. If I had an EV, I'd need to pick a spot and always park it there when I want to charge it. If that's inside the garage, I need to keep the garage clean or I can't charge, etc. It's better if I charge with 120v cause I can plug it in anywhere, but then charging is slow. Even if I usually park my liquid fueled vehicle in the garage, I can park it outside for a week or two if I take a big delivery for a group buy and need to have everyone else come and pick it up. If I move, I have to be picky about where I move; if there's no charging infrastructure, my car turns into a pumpkin. If I go on a long trip, I need to plan for charging on the way and my destination. From experience with my PHEV, I need to be extra careful because some chargers are impossible to use because their payment system doesn't work; some chargers are impossible to use because they've gone wireless (I seriously saw a charger at a mall that had no cable, wtf). Driving a liquid fueled vehicle, if the gauge works, I don't need to plan for fueling unless driving through undeveloped areas and there's usually signs like 'no services for 78 miles'. Even without a working gauge, if you keep a gas can, running out of fuel in a developed area is easy to recover from, especially now when you can open a map on your phone and know which way to walk. There's a car I'm interested in being revealed next month, but it's almost certainly EV only, so it's going to be a no. I don't want to have to think about how to fuel my vehicle. Also, market rate EV charging out and about seems to be about 2x home electricity prices near me, which means I'd be grumpy if I charged away from home.
mattw2121 2y ago
How in the world do you remember to put gas in your car? Are you getting stranded on the side of the road with no gas all the time? Don't drive? How in the world do you manage anything else in your life? You are painting a picture that having to remember (or be reminded) to do anything in your life is 100% impossible.
- yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
  Putting gas in the car requires taking an immediate action and then being done. Charging an EV requires plugging it in for an extended time and then remembering to retrieve it (when the charger is a shared resource). I could easily believe that the former is easier.
  - fnordpiglet 2y ago
    With modern chargers you effectively park at a strip mall, go pee and get a coffee, then get back in your car and continue your journey until the coffee makes you pee again.
    - JohnFen 2y ago
      Right, which means you have to make time for it. Sure, you can make up stuff to do while you wait, but it's still a long enough amount of time that you have to work it into your schedule. Filling a tank is quick enough that you don't have to do that. You can just fill your tank on an as-needed basis without planning for it.
fnordpiglet 2y ago
However, I assure you, the power and telephone company have dispensation to drill holes and run lines. These are regulatory constraints that are basically not real but are convenient functions to induce a behavior, but are easily and summarily dismissed when the political will exists to achieve some outcome. These constrains are point in time and aren’t fundamental like the complexity argument - which is reality based. The constraints you live under may be your emergent reality, but it’s not actually reality.
dzhiurgis 2y ago
> cotton mill built in the 1800s Surprised you are allowed cars then. Perhaps stick to horses and see if state changes their mind.

toomuchtodo 2y ago

Your point is fair, but this is a problem to be solved, not to throw up our hands and say it is impossible. EVs work for many people and use cases today; those for which they don't are the body of work to work towards solutions. I recently worked, for free on my own time, to help a condo association to plan and install infrastructure to support 200 charging stations across two buildings with ~100 units. Total time investment was ~8 hours. A few folks paid to plug into that infra, but those buildings are now future proof. If you want help, I can reach out; let me know. We will electrify all the things, because we must [1]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41453394 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41453394

tharmas 2y ago
How about another problem: supply of electricity and then its price? For those of us who don't drive but use electricity, we are going to experience much higher prices of electricity when the masses are forced to drive electric cars. I don't think much thought has gone into planning for this huge demand. The other problem i see with electric cars is the how long it takes to charge. I'm sure people will respond and say that's just another problem to solve but I just don't see charging ever being as fast as filling up at a gas station. Clearly the activity of using an electric car is going to be different from how an ICE powered car has been used. Has anyone written about this?
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  > An analysis by KPMG says the U.S. currently has enough generating capability to charge 80 million EVs during overnight hours—hence the need to control when cars are charged. The Edison Electric Institute estimates there could be 26 million EVs on the road by 2030, up from about 3.2 million today. [1] [2] Most people will charge overnight (either at home or the office), the average daily round trip commute is ~40 miles (1-2 hours of charging at a level 2 charger to replenish this range, depending on current available). Fast DC charging can be performed in 15-20 minutes, depending on state of charge of the battery and the charging station. My Tesla, when supercharging at the grocery store, is finished faster than I finish shopping (for example). [1] https://assets.kpmg.com/content/dam/kpmg/xx/pdf/2023/07/charging-ahead-addressing-the-ev-cost-hurdle.pdf https://assets.kpmg.com/content/dam/kpmg/xx/pdf/2023/07/char... [2] https://www.wsj.com/articles/url-us-power-grid-electric-vehicles-ev-charging-11675444994 https://www.wsj.com/articles/url-us-power-grid-electric-vehi...
  - tharmas 2y ago
    Thanks for the links. I should have included AI in my Doomsday scenario. AI is very power hungry. Of course AI server farms will not be spread out the way electric charging stations are but will be more concentrated but I do know tech CEO's are already looking at Canada to supply the expected electricity demand. That suggests to me there isn't enough capacity in the USA to meet that forecasted demand. >My Tesla, when supercharging at the grocery store, is finished faster than I finish shopping (for example). Where I'm at, the number of charging stations at the grocery store is already inadequate. They are always full. I see people with electric cars wanting to "get a spot" with a charger and there isn't any. This is what I mean about the lack of planning. The govt assumes that the market will meet demand but I just think mandating all cars be electric and relying on the market to meet that sudden demand is naïve.
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      Conversely, it is silly that we simply default to combustion vehicles because they are easy and we are lazy. Work is hard, and nothing in this thread described cannot be solved with existing technology. Maybe we could be less lazy? Maybe!
JohnFen 2y ago
> Your point is fair, but this is a problem to be solved, not to throw up our hands and say it is impossible. I don't think anyone is saying it's impossible. They're saying it's a problem right now, and that's a large part of why so many people avoid EVs. If someone figures out a way to mitigate that problem tomorrow, then the equation changes. But tomorrow isn't here today, and people have needs to met today.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  And if the problem is solved and people still choose hybrids or combustion vehicles? You can solve All The Problems and humans can still make irrational, suboptimal choices. What is good enough to make the lizard brain cozy with the EV choice? Not rhetorical! Genuinely interested in the thought.
  - JohnFen 2y ago
    > And if the problem is solved and people still choose hybrids? If that's the case, then there's still a problem that hasn't been adequately solved. But that's a hypothetical. The reality is that there are real, nonimaginary showstopper problems right now.
  - toast0 2y ago
    Here's my lizard brain issue: owning and using an EV requires more planning / is less flexible at least while liquid fuel is so easily accessible. With liquid fueled vehicles, I can park them wherever at home. If I had an EV, I'd need to pick a spot and always park it there when I want to charge it. If that's inside the garage, I need to keep the garage clean or I can't charge, etc. It's better if I charge with 120v cause I can plug it in anywhere, but then charging is slow. Even if I usually park my liquid fueled vehicle in the garage, I can park it outside for a week or two if I take a big delivery for a group buy and need to have everyone else come and pick it up. If I move, I have to be picky about where I move; if there's no charging infrastructure, my car turns into a pumpkin. If I go on a long trip, I need to plan for charging on the way and my destination. From experience with my PHEV, I need to be extra careful because some chargers are impossible to use because their payment system doesn't work; some chargers are impossible to use because they've gone wireless (I seriously saw a charger at a mall that had no cable, wtf). Driving a liquid fueled vehicle, if the gauge works, I don't need to plan for fueling unless driving through undeveloped areas and there's usually signs like 'no services for 78 miles'. Even without a working gauge, if you keep a gas can, running out of fuel in a developed area is easy to recover from, especially now when you can open a map on your phone and know which way to walk. There's a car I'm interested in being revealed next month, but it's almost certainly EV only, so it's going to be a no. I don't want to have to think about how to fuel my vehicle. Also, market rate EV charging out and about seems to be about 2x home electricity prices near me, which means I'd be grumpy if I charged away from home.

mattw2121 2y ago

How in the world do you remember to put gas in your car? Are you getting stranded on the side of the road with no gas all the time? Don't drive? How in the world do you manage anything else in your life? You are painting a picture that having to remember (or be reminded) to do anything in your life is 100% impossible.

yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
Putting gas in the car requires taking an immediate action and then being done. Charging an EV requires plugging it in for an extended time and then remembering to retrieve it (when the charger is a shared resource). I could easily believe that the former is easier.
- fnordpiglet 2y ago
  With modern chargers you effectively park at a strip mall, go pee and get a coffee, then get back in your car and continue your journey until the coffee makes you pee again.
  - JohnFen 2y ago
    Right, which means you have to make time for it. Sure, you can make up stuff to do while you wait, but it's still a long enough amount of time that you have to work it into your schedule. Filling a tank is quick enough that you don't have to do that. You can just fill your tank on an as-needed basis without planning for it.

fnordpiglet 2y ago

However, I assure you, the power and telephone company have dispensation to drill holes and run lines. These are regulatory constraints that are basically not real but are convenient functions to induce a behavior, but are easily and summarily dismissed when the political will exists to achieve some outcome. These constrains are point in time and aren’t fundamental like the complexity argument - which is reality based. The constraints you live under may be your emergent reality, but it’s not actually reality.

dzhiurgis 2y ago

> cotton mill built in the 1800s Surprised you are allowed cars then. Perhaps stick to horses and see if state changes their mind.