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I agree, practically every consumer ice vehicle should have a 50 mile all-electric range at this point. I think this is very doable with sodium ion in advanced

I agree, practically every consumer ice vehicle should have a 50 mile all-electric range at this point. I think this is very doable with sodium ion in advanced lfp. I think the issue for investors with a car company is that it represents a lack of ability to handle the evening transition and so it really does Mark your company as a dinosaur and keeps them from properly innovating and transitioning. With sodium ion and advanced lfp, the cost of a very very capable EV is going to permanently drop underneath an ICE. There's simply too much simplification of the drivetrain in EVs once batteries become cheap.

idontwantthis 2y ago
See my comment above. They cost more than regular hybrids and save you less money than a full EV. They make no economic sense for consumers.
- thechao 2y ago
  Why do they cost more? Is it the additional hardware needed for the charging? I have a hard time believing that hardware is $5k. I have an easier time believing that the car manufacturers are gouging people interested in this solution space. This seems like an easy win for legislation: we just mandate that every consumer vehicle has to have a 35-mile minimum all-battery range with plug-in capabilities; the same way we mandate that consumer vehicles have to have catalytic converters.
  - idontwantthis 2y ago
    Mandating something doesn’t make it free. You mandate plugin then you just mandated that all cars cost $5000 (at least) more plus you removed downward price pressure from nonplugins so they will cost even more. It’s an entire second drive train and fuel system. It’s going to cost money. I also forgot to add in the fact that you still have full ICE maintenance costs with a plugin.
    - AtlasBarfed 2y ago
      No it's not the same, I think you are taking cues from the current generations of hybrids which (aside from the Volt) are at best 20 miles all-electric and generally have full car drivetrains doing primary or heavily supplemental power. 1) A decent plugin hybrid has the EV drivetrain: fantastic low end torque and sufficient horsepower to do highway speeds, but without an oversized battery. With a bit of rocket equation, it should be 1/3 the size for a 50-100 mile all-electric EV, or less, considering that 500 mile EVs exist 2) the ICE part gets to run in atkinson cycle and at the ideal RPM for maximum efficiency: it exists to recharge the battery. I almost wonder if a lawnmower motor could generate enough recharge rate (especially if you had a "long range" mode where the recharger kicks in almost immediately after the first 10 miles to start recharging) considering the higher efficiency of modern EV drivetrains. 3) the braking is mostly regenerative, so out goes most brake maintenance. The engine runs at ideal RPMs, and only on long range trips, so the oil life is much longer: the ideal is the engine only runs on long distance trips, and close to 90-95% of miles (certainly in an urban setting, rural would still be heavily served by a battery if its 50-100 miles) are in all electric. It's pretty basic math, if the engine only runs 5% of the time and runs in highway efficiency only, then it's maintenance lifetime is probably 20x longer than a normal engine's use. 4) hopefully it would eventually transition to a fuel cell for more efficiency, flexible fueling, and zero-pollution (aside from carbon in the case of hydrocarbon fuel), which I think if hybrids were mandated 25 years ago would have had an outside chance of happening within 10 years.
      - idontwantthis 2y ago
        Do the math like I did. Go watts to watts to watts with the most efficient gas engine there can be. You’re not going to get much of an improvement. You’re still burning gas to charge a battery to turn into forward motion.
        AtlasBarfed 2y ago
        You're pretending in-city inefficiency doesn't exist? The atkinson cycle doesn't exist? Turbocharging and combined cycle tricks (which can be used to boost efficiency / approach or exceed carnot limits I believe), other heat recovery/reuse (especially for A/C and heating), compact rotary engines, more precise combustion and timing, all of that can't be employed for a charging engine?
wffurr 2y ago
I just meant a 50 mpg style hybrid like the Prius, not even a plug-in. There's a ton of sub-30 mpg ICE cars and trucks out there still, which boggles my mind.

idontwantthis 2y ago

See my comment above. They cost more than regular hybrids and save you less money than a full EV. They make no economic sense for consumers.

thechao 2y ago
Why do they cost more? Is it the additional hardware needed for the charging? I have a hard time believing that hardware is $5k. I have an easier time believing that the car manufacturers are gouging people interested in this solution space. This seems like an easy win for legislation: we just mandate that every consumer vehicle has to have a 35-mile minimum all-battery range with plug-in capabilities; the same way we mandate that consumer vehicles have to have catalytic converters.
- idontwantthis 2y ago
  Mandating something doesn’t make it free. You mandate plugin then you just mandated that all cars cost $5000 (at least) more plus you removed downward price pressure from nonplugins so they will cost even more. It’s an entire second drive train and fuel system. It’s going to cost money. I also forgot to add in the fact that you still have full ICE maintenance costs with a plugin.
  - AtlasBarfed 2y ago
    No it's not the same, I think you are taking cues from the current generations of hybrids which (aside from the Volt) are at best 20 miles all-electric and generally have full car drivetrains doing primary or heavily supplemental power. 1) A decent plugin hybrid has the EV drivetrain: fantastic low end torque and sufficient horsepower to do highway speeds, but without an oversized battery. With a bit of rocket equation, it should be 1/3 the size for a 50-100 mile all-electric EV, or less, considering that 500 mile EVs exist 2) the ICE part gets to run in atkinson cycle and at the ideal RPM for maximum efficiency: it exists to recharge the battery. I almost wonder if a lawnmower motor could generate enough recharge rate (especially if you had a "long range" mode where the recharger kicks in almost immediately after the first 10 miles to start recharging) considering the higher efficiency of modern EV drivetrains. 3) the braking is mostly regenerative, so out goes most brake maintenance. The engine runs at ideal RPMs, and only on long range trips, so the oil life is much longer: the ideal is the engine only runs on long distance trips, and close to 90-95% of miles (certainly in an urban setting, rural would still be heavily served by a battery if its 50-100 miles) are in all electric. It's pretty basic math, if the engine only runs 5% of the time and runs in highway efficiency only, then it's maintenance lifetime is probably 20x longer than a normal engine's use. 4) hopefully it would eventually transition to a fuel cell for more efficiency, flexible fueling, and zero-pollution (aside from carbon in the case of hydrocarbon fuel), which I think if hybrids were mandated 25 years ago would have had an outside chance of happening within 10 years.
    - idontwantthis 2y ago
      Do the math like I did. Go watts to watts to watts with the most efficient gas engine there can be. You’re not going to get much of an improvement. You’re still burning gas to charge a battery to turn into forward motion.
      - AtlasBarfed 2y ago
        You're pretending in-city inefficiency doesn't exist? The atkinson cycle doesn't exist? Turbocharging and combined cycle tricks (which can be used to boost efficiency / approach or exceed carnot limits I believe), other heat recovery/reuse (especially for A/C and heating), compact rotary engines, more precise combustion and timing, all of that can't be employed for a charging engine?

wffurr 2y ago

I just meant a 50 mpg style hybrid like the Prius, not even a plug-in. There's a ton of sub-30 mpg ICE cars and trucks out there still, which boggles my mind.