5 ms·

TLDR; Labor unions and protectionism.

toomuchtodo 2y ago
Agreed, need more of both. Will take time, but the political and labor winds are blowing in the right direction. America will learn to build again, just the hard way (as is tradition).
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > need more of both Did we read the same article? It costs twice to 4x as much “to build a ship in the U.S. as it does elsewhere” because our shipbuilding industry “is propped up by some of the most restrictive protectionist laws in the world” and governed by unions that oppose “dramatic changes in shipping and shipbuilding technology.” (“A Japanese shipbuilding executive noted that if ships were behind schedule, American yards were inclined to throw more labor at the problem, where Japanese yards would ask for the reason behind the delays and resolve the fundamental issues.”) That leads to higher “ship costs and construction times,” and a dwindling market share that is propped up by the Navy and Jones Act. If our instinct is more protectionism, we’re just conceding that in a fight we’ll be reliant on the foreign shipyards we’re shielding from American ingenuity.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    What is the value of national security and resilience in manufacturing, a supply chain, and a trained, experienced workforce? Have we learned nothing from China and their approach? Financial efficiency leads to system fragility. Fragile systems for discretionary systems, durable, more expensive systems for critical systems. It's operational readiness, and that requirement (guaranteed startup and throughput) has a cost. And if you are outsourcing across nation state borders, you limit control over outcomes and destiny.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > Have we learned nothing from China and their approach? China combines protectionism with cheap labour and moderate productivity. (Korea and Japan, expensive labour with very high productivity.) We can’t change our labour costs. But without productivity enhancement, that requires either massive subsidies or a moribund industry. The unions block those productivity enhancements since they could lead to lay-offs in the short term; we see the same problem at our docks.
      - toomuchtodo 2y ago
        I agree, but also without unions, we see the dystopian hellscape the US labor market is. So, while productivity enhancement is a necessary, desired component of a solution, unions are non negotiable. We are past the point "unions bad," no one is eating that shit sandwich anymore [1] [2]. 88% of people under 30 view unions favorably—a record-breaking level of support from young workers, for example. [1] https://www.marketplace.org/2023/01/03/gen-z-is-the-most-pro-union-generation/ https://www.marketplace.org/2023/01/03/gen-z-is-the-most-pro... [2] https://news.gallup.com/poll/510281/unions-strengthening.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/510281/unions-strengthening.asp...
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > unions are non negotiable Then we need to lower protectionism (i.e. force the unionised shipyards to compete), massively ramp up subsidies or concede we’ll be reliant on foreign shipyards in a war of attrition. Given the first and second are politically unrealistic inasmuch as they require long-term commitments, to not roll back into protectionism or cut subsidies in a budget crunch, we’re left with the third.
        toomuchtodo 2y ago
        > massively subsidise this set of workers I absolutely agree. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41234312 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41234312 https://www.wpr.org/economy/investigation-into-chinas-unfair-trade-practices-supports-wisconsin-shipbuilding https://www.wpr.org/economy/investigation-into-chinas-unfair...

Agreed, need more of both. Will take time, but the political and labor winds are blowing in the right direction. America will learn to build again, just the hard way (as is tradition).

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> need more of both Did we read the same article? It costs twice to 4x as much “to build a ship in the U.S. as it does elsewhere” because our shipbuilding industry “is propped up by some of the most restrictive protectionist laws in the world” and governed by unions that oppose “dramatic changes in shipping and shipbuilding technology.” (“A Japanese shipbuilding executive noted that if ships were behind schedule, American yards were inclined to throw more labor at the problem, where Japanese yards would ask for the reason behind the delays and resolve the fundamental issues.”) That leads to higher “ship costs and construction times,” and a dwindling market share that is propped up by the Navy and Jones Act. If our instinct is more protectionism, we’re just conceding that in a fight we’ll be reliant on the foreign shipyards we’re shielding from American ingenuity.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  What is the value of national security and resilience in manufacturing, a supply chain, and a trained, experienced workforce? Have we learned nothing from China and their approach? Financial efficiency leads to system fragility. Fragile systems for discretionary systems, durable, more expensive systems for critical systems. It's operational readiness, and that requirement (guaranteed startup and throughput) has a cost. And if you are outsourcing across nation state borders, you limit control over outcomes and destiny.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Have we learned nothing from China and their approach? China combines protectionism with cheap labour and moderate productivity. (Korea and Japan, expensive labour with very high productivity.) We can’t change our labour costs. But without productivity enhancement, that requires either massive subsidies or a moribund industry. The unions block those productivity enhancements since they could lead to lay-offs in the short term; we see the same problem at our docks.
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      I agree, but also without unions, we see the dystopian hellscape the US labor market is. So, while productivity enhancement is a necessary, desired component of a solution, unions are non negotiable. We are past the point "unions bad," no one is eating that shit sandwich anymore [1] [2]. 88% of people under 30 view unions favorably—a record-breaking level of support from young workers, for example. [1] https://www.marketplace.org/2023/01/03/gen-z-is-the-most-pro-union-generation/ https://www.marketplace.org/2023/01/03/gen-z-is-the-most-pro... [2] https://news.gallup.com/poll/510281/unions-strengthening.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/510281/unions-strengthening.asp...
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > unions are non negotiable Then we need to lower protectionism (i.e. force the unionised shipyards to compete), massively ramp up subsidies or concede we’ll be reliant on foreign shipyards in a war of attrition. Given the first and second are politically unrealistic inasmuch as they require long-term commitments, to not roll back into protectionism or cut subsidies in a budget crunch, we’re left with the third.
        toomuchtodo 2y ago
        > massively subsidise this set of workers I absolutely agree. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41234312 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41234312 https://www.wpr.org/economy/investigation-into-chinas-unfair-trade-practices-supports-wisconsin-shipbuilding https://www.wpr.org/economy/investigation-into-chinas-unfair...