3 ms·

>Thinking critically is in direct contradiction with the notion that everyone's opinion is equally valid Democratic societies tend to follow the model that tru

by mikrl 2y ago

>Thinking critically is in direct contradiction with the notion that everyone's opinion is equally valid Democratic societies tend to follow the model that truth comes out of conflict in the marketplace of ideas: the best idea wins, and everyone’s opinion is equally valid as spoken, until it is shown to be unfit through competition. Authoritarian movements tend to follow the more religious model that the truth is only knowable by a learned/privileged class in a society, and those not in this group should support them and leave them to discover it, then accept it. So, I would say critical thinking is necessary for democracy and anathema to authoritarianism, or perhaps the democratization of critical thought is necessary for healthy democracy.

ToucanLoucan 2y ago
> Democratic societies tend to follow the model that truth comes out of conflict in the marketplace of ideas: the best idea wins, and everyone’s opinion is equally valid as spoken, until it is shown to be unfit through competition. And like most ideas most people have about marketplaces, it's wrong. The marketplace of ideas is like most marketplaces in that it, by virtue of being built of people, inherits all the flaws present in those people: emotional thinking, biases (conscious and unconscious), and all the mental frailties that plague us as beings: concerns about social status, fitting in, and the desire to flex. As a result, again like any other marketplace, simply "having the best product" is a distant last place to far more effective strategies to ensure your success in the market: good branding and advertising, collusion with other participants, vertical integration and of course, bullshitting the consumers on an industrial scale. And, failing all that, litigation. That an idea succeeds in a marketplace of ideas is no different than a product which succeeds in a marketplace: it doesn't mean anything intrinsic about the idea/product, it just means that idea/product did well in this market, at this time, with these consumers, and if any of those circumstances were changed, it is entirely possible that product would then lose.
- Jensson 2y ago
  Modern science came from the marketplace of ideas, it is really good, people tend to believe in stuff that works.
  - ToucanLoucan 2y ago
    63% of the people in my country believe angels are real.
- mikrl 2y ago
  Since critical thinking is performed by humans, surely the same human ‘flaws’ apply. I would think that having characteristics of humanity is not necessarily bad for a human oriented system, and I can also point to any number of atrocities that were the ‘perfectly rational’ course of action for a statesman, nation or movement at some point in time.
  - ToucanLoucan 2y ago
    > Since critical thinking is performed by humans, surely the same human ‘flaws’ apply. Oh absolutely. And that's just accounting for actual critical thinking in which human flaws enter the equation and muck things up. Huge swathes of public intellectuals claim to be rational, objective, critical thinkers all the time when they're spouting complete nonsense, usually for a paycheck. > I would think that having characteristics of humanity is not necessarily bad for a human oriented system, and I can also point to any number of atrocities that were the ‘perfectly rational’ course of action for a statesman, nation or movement at some point in time. I would also add to that, that a purely rational worldview or thought isn't even necessarily a good thing. We will never escape the foibles of our human limitations (at least, probably) but in the same way, we must always retain our humanity too.
CooCooCaCha 2y ago
That seems like a very naive view of markets. More idealistic than realistic and to a degree that’s frankly harmful as quite often bad actors abuse markets while using the idealism as propaganda to confuse, gaslighting, and distract.

by mikrl 2y ago

ToucanLoucan 2y ago

> Democratic societies tend to follow the model that truth comes out of conflict in the marketplace of ideas: the best idea wins, and everyone’s opinion is equally valid as spoken, until it is shown to be unfit through competition. And like most ideas most people have about marketplaces, it's wrong. The marketplace of ideas is like most marketplaces in that it, by virtue of being built of people, inherits all the flaws present in those people: emotional thinking, biases (conscious and unconscious), and all the mental frailties that plague us as beings: concerns about social status, fitting in, and the desire to flex. As a result, again like any other marketplace, simply "having the best product" is a distant last place to far more effective strategies to ensure your success in the market: good branding and advertising, collusion with other participants, vertical integration and of course, bullshitting the consumers on an industrial scale. And, failing all that, litigation. That an idea succeeds in a marketplace of ideas is no different than a product which succeeds in a marketplace: it doesn't mean anything intrinsic about the idea/product, it just means that idea/product did well in this market, at this time, with these consumers, and if any of those circumstances were changed, it is entirely possible that product would then lose.

Jensson 2y ago
Modern science came from the marketplace of ideas, it is really good, people tend to believe in stuff that works.
- ToucanLoucan 2y ago
  63% of the people in my country believe angels are real.
mikrl 2y ago
Since critical thinking is performed by humans, surely the same human ‘flaws’ apply. I would think that having characteristics of humanity is not necessarily bad for a human oriented system, and I can also point to any number of atrocities that were the ‘perfectly rational’ course of action for a statesman, nation or movement at some point in time.
- ToucanLoucan 2y ago
  > Since critical thinking is performed by humans, surely the same human ‘flaws’ apply. Oh absolutely. And that's just accounting for actual critical thinking in which human flaws enter the equation and muck things up. Huge swathes of public intellectuals claim to be rational, objective, critical thinkers all the time when they're spouting complete nonsense, usually for a paycheck. > I would think that having characteristics of humanity is not necessarily bad for a human oriented system, and I can also point to any number of atrocities that were the ‘perfectly rational’ course of action for a statesman, nation or movement at some point in time. I would also add to that, that a purely rational worldview or thought isn't even necessarily a good thing. We will never escape the foibles of our human limitations (at least, probably) but in the same way, we must always retain our humanity too.

CooCooCaCha 2y ago

That seems like a very naive view of markets. More idealistic than realistic and to a degree that’s frankly harmful as quite often bad actors abuse markets while using the idealism as propaganda to confuse, gaslighting, and distract.