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If I lived before the tape measure was invented, and rely on carefully placing my metersticks to measure things, I can get really good at measuring without the

by eks391 2y ago

If I lived before the tape measure was invented, and rely on carefully placing my metersticks to measure things, I can get really good at measuring without the need for a measuring tape. After all, a measuring tape is just a few flexible metersticks anyways, so if you need to measure something longer than the full length of the tape, you are screwed. If you take the measuring tape away from the person who relied on that tool instead of being good at using a meterstick, or perhaps no tools besides their own arm length, they are gonna suddenly not be able to measure, unless they go through the effort of learning to measure without the tape. You can argue that measuring tape is a crutch preventing people from learning how to properly measure, and has its own limitations, but regardless its still really helpful, especially for people who only need to measure things occassionally, and not super long things. ChatGPT is a tool. Just like all other tools, like computers, cars, etc., if you take it away, most people cannot perform the function for which they relied on the tool to help them do.

cageface 2y ago
What if the function they were using the tool for is basic reasoning?
- eks391 2y ago
  ChatGPT is not the first tool used to replace basic reasoning, and we haven't collapsed yet. I would argue that nearly all tools can be used to remove basic reasoning, depending on if you choose to use it in such a manner.
  - cageface 2y ago
    What previous tools would you say replaced basic reasoning? I would not classify calculators, spreadsheets, spelling and grammar checkers etc as basic reasoning tools. I'm talking about bringing together several independent concepts or sets of facts and forming a coherent point of view or argument from them.
    - eks391 2y ago
      > What previous tools would you say replaced basic reasoning? No tool replaces reasoning itself. Not even an LLM. All (most) tools have the capacity to, if you use them for this purpose. > I would not classify calculators, spreadsheets, spelling and grammar checkers etc as basic reasoning tools. Why not? I have seen people use calculators to chug "6-2" before, and they were not children. In fact, all four of those examples are perfect for my point. They create the opportunity to do great things, or be a crutch so you don't have to think. If you are convinsed that there is no user of grammarly that didn't just quickly type a draft and throw it in without proofreading, for the sake of not needing to use basic grammatical reasoning, then you have a very kind view of mankind. > I'm talking about bringing together several independent concepts or sets of facts and forming a coherent point of view or argument from them. This is a more narrow view than what I was arguing, so it's possible we will have to agree to disagree. I guess a quick rebuttle here is that people who don't exercise sufficient thought to form coherent conclusions from separate information were going to stay stupid anyway. And then yes, ChatGPT would be bad because it could in theory enable this behavior in its handouts.
      - cageface 2y ago
        > They create the opportunity to do great things, or be a crutch so you don't have to think The very reason people are so excited about LLMs is that they believe that they are capable of a kind of thought that machines up to now have been incapable of. If you buy this then it follows that relying on them has a qualitatively different effect on our own abilities than previous tools.
trymas 2y ago
After skimming through the article - as I understand ChatGPT was used as a tutor. Many users of ChatGPT clearly know that it doesn't do math. Now imagine your teacher is wrong at solving 40+% of problems it’s teaching you? Or that your measuring tape is wrong at nearly every second measurement? Yeah it’s a tool - but you must nail your fundamentals right. Where I grew up - calculators were not allowed in elementary school - so every student must nail down basic arithmetic.
Sammi 2y ago
I worked at building supplies shop for 5 months when I was a youth, and I still have an uncanny ability to estimate lengths of building materials 20 years later, just from having handled and sorted different sizes of building materials so much. I remember when I started there the old guys would point at stuff and say the length of it, and I was just amazed that they were correct, even if if it was a long 4.8 meter long plank of wood that they had never seen before. I gained that ability after like 3 months there and I still have a strong ability for it now. Weird random ability.

by eks391 2y ago

cageface 2y ago

What if the function they were using the tool for is basic reasoning?

eks391 2y ago
ChatGPT is not the first tool used to replace basic reasoning, and we haven't collapsed yet. I would argue that nearly all tools can be used to remove basic reasoning, depending on if you choose to use it in such a manner.
- cageface 2y ago
  What previous tools would you say replaced basic reasoning? I would not classify calculators, spreadsheets, spelling and grammar checkers etc as basic reasoning tools. I'm talking about bringing together several independent concepts or sets of facts and forming a coherent point of view or argument from them.
  - eks391 2y ago
    > What previous tools would you say replaced basic reasoning? No tool replaces reasoning itself. Not even an LLM. All (most) tools have the capacity to, if you use them for this purpose. > I would not classify calculators, spreadsheets, spelling and grammar checkers etc as basic reasoning tools. Why not? I have seen people use calculators to chug "6-2" before, and they were not children. In fact, all four of those examples are perfect for my point. They create the opportunity to do great things, or be a crutch so you don't have to think. If you are convinsed that there is no user of grammarly that didn't just quickly type a draft and throw it in without proofreading, for the sake of not needing to use basic grammatical reasoning, then you have a very kind view of mankind. > I'm talking about bringing together several independent concepts or sets of facts and forming a coherent point of view or argument from them. This is a more narrow view than what I was arguing, so it's possible we will have to agree to disagree. I guess a quick rebuttle here is that people who don't exercise sufficient thought to form coherent conclusions from separate information were going to stay stupid anyway. And then yes, ChatGPT would be bad because it could in theory enable this behavior in its handouts.
    - cageface 2y ago
      > They create the opportunity to do great things, or be a crutch so you don't have to think The very reason people are so excited about LLMs is that they believe that they are capable of a kind of thought that machines up to now have been incapable of. If you buy this then it follows that relying on them has a qualitatively different effect on our own abilities than previous tools.

trymas 2y ago

After skimming through the article - as I understand ChatGPT was used as a tutor. Many users of ChatGPT clearly know that it doesn't do math. Now imagine your teacher is wrong at solving 40+% of problems it’s teaching you? Or that your measuring tape is wrong at nearly every second measurement? Yeah it’s a tool - but you must nail your fundamentals right. Where I grew up - calculators were not allowed in elementary school - so every student must nail down basic arithmetic.

Sammi 2y ago

I worked at building supplies shop for 5 months when I was a youth, and I still have an uncanny ability to estimate lengths of building materials 20 years later, just from having handled and sorted different sizes of building materials so much. I remember when I started there the old guys would point at stuff and say the length of it, and I was just amazed that they were correct, even if if it was a long 4.8 meter long plank of wood that they had never seen before. I gained that ability after like 3 months there and I still have a strong ability for it now. Weird random ability.