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This feels like something you could get a whole lot more traction and experimentation in quickly if it also existed as a room in something like VRChat or added

by rtkwe 2y ago

This feels like something you could get a whole lot more traction and experimentation in quickly if it also existed as a room in something like VRChat or added to people's rooms in a VR passthrough mode. You'd lose some of the benefits of being in a shared physical space but you would also lose some of the limitations around the tracking resolution and stability of the fiducial markers on the page and open it up to people who can't make it to the location in person. A 2.0 version could even merge the two versions slightly, tracking irl people into the virtual space (with pose and position estimates?) and programs (? I don't know the lingo off hand, but I mean the paper sheets everything revolves around) and in the opposite direction project the programs from VR onto the real table. I've been interested in it for years so I'm very glad to see it's still moving forwards and alive. There were years where I couldn't find any actual new information coming out of the project.

i_am_jl 2y ago
> if it also existed as a room in something like VRChat or added to people's rooms in a VR passthrough mode I dunno. Someone in VR can't manipulate the same physical objects that people in the real world can. You are forced to compromise physicality so that VR users aren't second-class users, or you build two different experiences for VR and non-VR users which goes against the idea of a shared experience. I think what you're describing has value, but I also think you're removing the fundamental piece of what makes this unique and special.
- rtkwe 2y ago
  Yeah the VR to physical is a limitation for sure, there are things like omnidirectional conveyors [0] that could make it possible for virtual users to move the physical program cards, at least around a flat table. It's also not a problem in a purely virtual version. I do get that it's a bit of a side step but it's also currently completely inaccessible unless you happen to be a part of one of the labs it's moved to since the other public space closed during the COVID shutdowns. Right now there's not even a physical space one could go to if they could make the trek out, unless I'm misreading the intro video. Also I hate to see the neat idea of RealTalkOS locked into probable obscurity because Bret's wholistic vision requires very expensive physical spaces when we could build and improve the tech at the core of it until projectors and cameras get cheaper than the 50-200 USD per sq foot some more open implementations estimate for costs. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAokGOEjAFs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAokGOEjAFs
  - infinite8s 2y ago
    Wait till you realize the projectors and cameras are incidental to the whole thing...
    - rtkwe 2y ago
      What do you mean? They're critical to making the physical version of DL work. They could be supplanted in VR of course but I don't see how you make an IRL DL without them.
      - infinite8s 2y ago
        What if eInk paper was as cheap as paper and each sheet had a small processor and could mesh network? What if computing was so cheap you could toss it out when you were done with it like a Kleenex (not a big stretch - an electronic toothbrush has a 3 cent chip which has more computing power than what the Apollo moon shuttle had onboard). Bret is thinking in decades, not years.
justin66 2y ago
> This feels like something you could get a whole lot more traction and experimentation in quickly if it also existed as a room in something like VRChat or added to people's rooms in a VR passthrough mode. That would be something entirely different.
- rtkwe 2y ago
  I don't believe that honestly. There's many facets of what Bret is making here. Not all of them require a physical presence, the COVID lockdown and years of internet communities before that have shown you can build vibrant communities online. Many of the ideas can be worked on and improved without requiring the expensive physical space so the OS and the concepts of the composed tools they talk about for the future of the project can all be improved and played with in a virtual space too separate from the physical presence.
  - justin66 2y ago
    I did not intend to discourage the idea! I think it sounds very cool and potentially worthy of study. But I really do think you're underestimating the difference.

by rtkwe 2y ago

i_am_jl 2y ago

> if it also existed as a room in something like VRChat or added to people's rooms in a VR passthrough mode I dunno. Someone in VR can't manipulate the same physical objects that people in the real world can. You are forced to compromise physicality so that VR users aren't second-class users, or you build two different experiences for VR and non-VR users which goes against the idea of a shared experience. I think what you're describing has value, but I also think you're removing the fundamental piece of what makes this unique and special.

rtkwe 2y ago
Yeah the VR to physical is a limitation for sure, there are things like omnidirectional conveyors [0] that could make it possible for virtual users to move the physical program cards, at least around a flat table. It's also not a problem in a purely virtual version. I do get that it's a bit of a side step but it's also currently completely inaccessible unless you happen to be a part of one of the labs it's moved to since the other public space closed during the COVID shutdowns. Right now there's not even a physical space one could go to if they could make the trek out, unless I'm misreading the intro video. Also I hate to see the neat idea of RealTalkOS locked into probable obscurity because Bret's wholistic vision requires very expensive physical spaces when we could build and improve the tech at the core of it until projectors and cameras get cheaper than the 50-200 USD per sq foot some more open implementations estimate for costs. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAokGOEjAFs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAokGOEjAFs
- infinite8s 2y ago
  Wait till you realize the projectors and cameras are incidental to the whole thing...
  - rtkwe 2y ago
    What do you mean? They're critical to making the physical version of DL work. They could be supplanted in VR of course but I don't see how you make an IRL DL without them.
    - infinite8s 2y ago
      What if eInk paper was as cheap as paper and each sheet had a small processor and could mesh network? What if computing was so cheap you could toss it out when you were done with it like a Kleenex (not a big stretch - an electronic toothbrush has a 3 cent chip which has more computing power than what the Apollo moon shuttle had onboard). Bret is thinking in decades, not years.

justin66 2y ago

> This feels like something you could get a whole lot more traction and experimentation in quickly if it also existed as a room in something like VRChat or added to people's rooms in a VR passthrough mode. That would be something entirely different.

rtkwe 2y ago
I don't believe that honestly. There's many facets of what Bret is making here. Not all of them require a physical presence, the COVID lockdown and years of internet communities before that have shown you can build vibrant communities online. Many of the ideas can be worked on and improved without requiring the expensive physical space so the OS and the concepts of the composed tools they talk about for the future of the project can all be improved and played with in a virtual space too separate from the physical presence.
- justin66 2y ago
  I did not intend to discourage the idea! I think it sounds very cool and potentially worthy of study. But I really do think you're underestimating the difference.