4 ms·

Few weeks ago I took the bus; my bank card didn't work and I didn't have quite enough cash for a ticket. Bus driver took what I had and said it was okay. Closes

by arp242 2y ago

Few weeks ago I took the bus; my bank card didn't work and I didn't have quite enough cash for a ticket. Bus driver took what I had and said it was okay. Closest ATM to where I live is about 7km. This is the sort of basic compassion and humanity that needs to exist. Anything else would be cruel. This has always existed, and is increasingly made difficult by implementing systems that don't allow for these kind of exceptions. This is stripping regular normal people like that bus driver from their autonomy, and by extension, their humanity. That the bus driver could possibly maybe perhaps be racist and wouldn't have extended that kindness if I had been non-white is an entirely separate matter. Forbidding kindness because some people could possibly maybe perhaps be racist is far far worse, and will affect everyone negatively.

ranger_danger 2y ago
Conversely, Japan seems to get by fairly well without said slack whatsoever and a largely conformist society as a whole. Case in point, restaurant menus. Changing anything about your order is practically non-existent outside of maybe some Western chains. If it's not on the menu, you simply can't order it. All burgers come with tomatoes? Too bad. McDonald's Japan will not even sell you a large water. Even if you offer to pay full soda price, or even if you tell them to pour the soda out and then fill it with water (which is otherwise free), they simply refuse. The same situation with the bus driver would also never happen, they could easily get fired for allowing it. Train conductors even have to apologize for being early. There's also a lot more open racism and discrimination in various ways (example: drinking bar admittance or apartment rentals) and in various parts of their society that goes completely unpunished.
- bluefirebrand 2y ago
  > Conversely, Japan seems to get by fairly well without said slack whatsoever and a largely conformist society as a whole Japan has one of the highest suicide rates in the world Their society comes at a heavy cost
  - itake 2y ago
    I'm skeptical their suicide rate is driven by fixed menus.. The USA has a relatively high suicide rate and is famously not conformist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r...
- weikju 2y ago
  There is a LOT of slack in Japanese society. Using umbrellas while riding bicycles. Not wearing a helmet. Just two examples off the top of my head. Lots of slack granted to foreigners who aren’t expected to know the rules. Lots of slack granted to Japanese people who are free to be normal, hikikomori, nerdy, NEET, sporty, etc. Slack to be and do whatever unless you bother someone. It’s just slack you don’t really notice immediately unlike the menu stuff.
  - ranger_danger 2y ago
    I wouldn't call those slack in the same sense of the word because rules aren't being bent or ignored. Helmets and umbrellas are things that are simply too widespread to have adequate enforcement on, same for seatbelts in most countries... so I don't consider that actively letting it happen or "slacking" the same way. Foreigners might have some slack in some ways but in many ways it's quite the opposite... so there's both good and bad IMO. "Free to be normal etc." I don't consider that slack either, that's just having a generic free society to me.
itake 2y ago
"extending kindness" is a cousin of corruption. I think slack as well as rules can be systematically introduced to the system. Software lowers the cost to support "slack rules" (1 ride is free per year per human face).
- arp242 2y ago
  This is ridiculously complex, and thinking you can encode every possible eventuality in law or code is frankly not a serious suggestion. You need the "slack" exactly because it's just not feasible to do so. (Also: so many things can go wrong with your "facial detection" suggestion: internet not working, error in facial detection, broken equipment – never mind the privacy implications, or the cost of building and maintaining all of this, which would certainly be far far higher than any corruption, and still won't actually prevent corruption because drivers could still just let their mates pass without paying). And yes, giving people autonomy also means they can do bad things. And that's something we can live with, and it's far better than forbidding them from doing good things. Your distrust of people borders on the misanthropic.
  - portpecos 2y ago
    >This is ridiculously complex, and thinking you can encode every possible eventuality in law or code is frankly not a serious suggestion. This actually sounds interesting and I would be down to help pull off such a Herculean task.
    - auggierose 2y ago
      I think the point is that this is neither possible, nor is it sensible. Machine systems supervising humans is not human, it is Skynet.
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      I mean yes, it'd be a safe job to have for decades. You could get paid literally doing nothing. But also no, this is lunacy. Not only 'itake would like to strip people of their autonomy, they'd also like to strip them from their capacity to do good? That's wishing us a fate worse than death. Not that it's possible in practice anyway. It's a AGI-complete problem, and any lesser attempts are... well wake me up when any software system implements exceptions and slack around their rigid rules.
jimnotgym 2y ago
In the UK there is a very large chain of shops called Timpsons. They cut keys, fix shoes, dry clean etc. 1) They are famous for employing people straight from prison 2) Their tills are just calculators, no electronic connections, no stock control 3) The staff are allowed to give out freebies. Fix shoes for free for people who look like they need it. They will give you free dry cleaning if you have a job interview 4) They still somehow manage to be profitable and growing. There are at least 3 in my town alone. 5) The MD is a great prison reform campaigner, who just got given the job of UK prisons minister. 6) The one kpi they measure is an index of employee happiness. You can be successful without strict rules. He has only two. Here is his book HAPPY INDEX HB: Lessons in Upside-Down Management https://amzn.eu/d/1PEfVqc https://amzn.eu/d/1PEfVqc
efitz 2y ago
This is exactly right and one of the reasons why I hate computer software. If you think about manual processes like standing in a line and talking to a clerk, you don’t necessarily have to start again from the beginning if there is a hiccup- the clerk can allow you to leave the line and go get the thing you need and then come back to the front, meanwhile serving other customers. Computer software almost never even has this basic concession. If you spend 10 minutes filling out a form, and you get to a piece of information that is mandatory but you don’t have, the vast majority of systems will make you start over (sure you could just leave the window open but that logon session is gonna time out). Flexibility makes the world a much more pleasant place even if it occasionally invites abuse. As a society we typically allow a small baseline of abuse in exchange for this flexibility, and we punish severe abuse to make sure the level stays tolerable. But the other aspect is that flexibility is often pro-social. If you want flexibility you are strongly incentivized to be easy to deal with. If you are a jerk to everyone you will find a remarkable lack of flexibility.

by arp242 2y ago

ranger_danger 2y ago

Conversely, Japan seems to get by fairly well without said slack whatsoever and a largely conformist society as a whole. Case in point, restaurant menus. Changing anything about your order is practically non-existent outside of maybe some Western chains. If it's not on the menu, you simply can't order it. All burgers come with tomatoes? Too bad. McDonald's Japan will not even sell you a large water. Even if you offer to pay full soda price, or even if you tell them to pour the soda out and then fill it with water (which is otherwise free), they simply refuse. The same situation with the bus driver would also never happen, they could easily get fired for allowing it. Train conductors even have to apologize for being early. There's also a lot more open racism and discrimination in various ways (example: drinking bar admittance or apartment rentals) and in various parts of their society that goes completely unpunished.

bluefirebrand 2y ago
> Conversely, Japan seems to get by fairly well without said slack whatsoever and a largely conformist society as a whole Japan has one of the highest suicide rates in the world Their society comes at a heavy cost
- itake 2y ago
  I'm skeptical their suicide rate is driven by fixed menus.. The USA has a relatively high suicide rate and is famously not conformist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r...
weikju 2y ago
There is a LOT of slack in Japanese society. Using umbrellas while riding bicycles. Not wearing a helmet. Just two examples off the top of my head. Lots of slack granted to foreigners who aren’t expected to know the rules. Lots of slack granted to Japanese people who are free to be normal, hikikomori, nerdy, NEET, sporty, etc. Slack to be and do whatever unless you bother someone. It’s just slack you don’t really notice immediately unlike the menu stuff.
- ranger_danger 2y ago
  I wouldn't call those slack in the same sense of the word because rules aren't being bent or ignored. Helmets and umbrellas are things that are simply too widespread to have adequate enforcement on, same for seatbelts in most countries... so I don't consider that actively letting it happen or "slacking" the same way. Foreigners might have some slack in some ways but in many ways it's quite the opposite... so there's both good and bad IMO. "Free to be normal etc." I don't consider that slack either, that's just having a generic free society to me.

itake 2y ago

"extending kindness" is a cousin of corruption. I think slack as well as rules can be systematically introduced to the system. Software lowers the cost to support "slack rules" (1 ride is free per year per human face).

arp242 2y ago
This is ridiculously complex, and thinking you can encode every possible eventuality in law or code is frankly not a serious suggestion. You need the "slack" exactly because it's just not feasible to do so. (Also: so many things can go wrong with your "facial detection" suggestion: internet not working, error in facial detection, broken equipment – never mind the privacy implications, or the cost of building and maintaining all of this, which would certainly be far far higher than any corruption, and still won't actually prevent corruption because drivers could still just let their mates pass without paying). And yes, giving people autonomy also means they can do bad things. And that's something we can live with, and it's far better than forbidding them from doing good things. Your distrust of people borders on the misanthropic.
- portpecos 2y ago
  >This is ridiculously complex, and thinking you can encode every possible eventuality in law or code is frankly not a serious suggestion. This actually sounds interesting and I would be down to help pull off such a Herculean task.
  - auggierose 2y ago
    I think the point is that this is neither possible, nor is it sensible. Machine systems supervising humans is not human, it is Skynet.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    I mean yes, it'd be a safe job to have for decades. You could get paid literally doing nothing. But also no, this is lunacy. Not only 'itake would like to strip people of their autonomy, they'd also like to strip them from their capacity to do good? That's wishing us a fate worse than death. Not that it's possible in practice anyway. It's a AGI-complete problem, and any lesser attempts are... well wake me up when any software system implements exceptions and slack around their rigid rules.

jimnotgym 2y ago

In the UK there is a very large chain of shops called Timpsons. They cut keys, fix shoes, dry clean etc. 1) They are famous for employing people straight from prison 2) Their tills are just calculators, no electronic connections, no stock control 3) The staff are allowed to give out freebies. Fix shoes for free for people who look like they need it. They will give you free dry cleaning if you have a job interview 4) They still somehow manage to be profitable and growing. There are at least 3 in my town alone. 5) The MD is a great prison reform campaigner, who just got given the job of UK prisons minister. 6) The one kpi they measure is an index of employee happiness. You can be successful without strict rules. He has only two. Here is his book HAPPY INDEX HB: Lessons in Upside-Down Management https://amzn.eu/d/1PEfVqc https://amzn.eu/d/1PEfVqc

efitz 2y ago

This is exactly right and one of the reasons why I hate computer software. If you think about manual processes like standing in a line and talking to a clerk, you don’t necessarily have to start again from the beginning if there is a hiccup- the clerk can allow you to leave the line and go get the thing you need and then come back to the front, meanwhile serving other customers. Computer software almost never even has this basic concession. If you spend 10 minutes filling out a form, and you get to a piece of information that is mandatory but you don’t have, the vast majority of systems will make you start over (sure you could just leave the window open but that logon session is gonna time out). Flexibility makes the world a much more pleasant place even if it occasionally invites abuse. As a society we typically allow a small baseline of abuse in exchange for this flexibility, and we punish severe abuse to make sure the level stays tolerable. But the other aspect is that flexibility is often pro-social. If you want flexibility you are strongly incentivized to be easy to deal with. If you are a jerk to everyone you will find a remarkable lack of flexibility.