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I remember talking to a Lyft driver who was persuaded that being an employee means working fixed shifts. Nice job by Uber/Lyft to plant that idea in people's m

I remember talking to a Lyft driver who was persuaded that being an employee means working fixed shifts. Nice job by Uber/Lyft to plant that idea in people's minds! https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/workhours/flexibleschedules https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/workhours/flexibleschedule...

consumer451 2y ago
We are all easily programmed meat machines, myself included. Anyone who believes otherwise is just plain unaware.
Jensson 2y ago
It does mean you can no longer choose when to work, it doesn't mean fixed shifts but it means you can't drive whenever you want since now they have obligations towards you even when you aren't making them any money. Other jobs where you can do work whenever flexible shifts are fine, but that doesn't apply to taxi driving since there work aren't available everywhere at all times, you have to follow schedules to follow the demand since now the company has to pay you even when you don't have a passenger around.
- deepsun 2y ago
  So? Restaurants have to pay money to waiters even when there are no customers. It doesn't mean waiters can not be employees. They _must_ be employees. By the way, restaurants (except for few good ones, like Zazie in SF) don't pay minimum wages by offsetting it with tips. But if employee reports less tips than minimum wage for the same hours, the employer must pay the difference to bump it to minimum wage anyway.
  - Jcowell 2y ago
    But it is the difference of being able to turn on the app and choose when you want and don’t want to drive vs having to work in a time box that might or might no convent for you. A waiter cannot decide to not work one day without getting approval from their bosses/managers
    - deepsun 2y ago
      Again this lie. Department of Labor does NOT require employers to enforce any schedules. Some employers do, but they might as well just make a button "check in" / "check out", available any time. DoL is fine with that. A waiter can have an agreement with their boss to work whenever they like. Boss most certainly disagree, but it's boss's decision to enforce schedules. DoL doesn't care. Boss can as well agree and put a whiteboard and let waiters check in / check out by writing on it any time. Same as Uber/Lyft can make the buttons in the app (they already do). Of course, Uber/Lyft can, at their will, enforce the fixed schedules. But it will be obviously bad for their business. And no one requires them to do it, so naturally it would be beneficial to them to not enforce any fixed schedules.
refurb 2y ago
I mean how else would it work for something like Lyft/Uber? Drivers decide when to work? Then the employer is obligated to pay a minimum hourly wage and minimum hours? You could game that system easily. Just "choose" to work during the slowest times possible. Don't have to do any rides, but you get guaranteed pay.
- autoexec 2y ago
  There are lots of jobs where some people choose to work the slow hours. Overnight shifts and very early mornings for example. Turns out working those kinds of hours isn't for everyone, and companies only hire as many people as they need. At a certain point, some people are basically paid for being available when they're needed, not for the number of customers they churn through. That said, I've seen taxi drivers who got an hourly wage no matter if they got a rider or not go out of their way to get more fairs because they got tips and more hours including overtime hours.
  - diebeforei485 2y ago
    > There are lots of jobs where some people choose to work the slow hours. And the employment agreement typically does not allow the employee to also work for a competitor during their employment. And there is nothing stopping the employer from changing or reducing the hours, unless the employment agreement has provisions about that. You might think that Uber should hire some drivers on fixed shifts because there is some baseline of demand. The issue is, in a growing number of cities, AV's play that role. There are some examples where employees have to work specific shifts but still get paid less depending on what they're doing. Notably flight attendants. They might not get paid while waiting at the airport if the plane needs maintenance prior to boarding.
    - autoexec 2y ago
      > There are some examples where employees have to work specific shifts but still get paid less depending on what they're doing. That sounds reasonable, so long as their base pay is enough that they can support themselves at full time hours.
randomdata 2y ago
Wrong link? The one you provided states: "The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) has no provisions regarding the scheduling of employees, with the exception of certain child labor provisions. Therefore, an employer may change an employee's work hours without giving prior notice or obtaining the employee's consent" Which is the fixed shift the driver speaks of. Granted, it, as you would expect, offers the caveat: "(unless otherwise subject to a prior agreement between the employer and employee or the employee's representative)" However, if you can't already negotiate what you want out of these businesses... After all, that is the only advantage to being an employee: The government will do a baseline amount of negotiating for you – but clearly isn't willing to here.
- deepsun 2y ago
  No, it's the other way around. It says that employer does not have to provide any schedules. It may as well make a button in the app "check in/out" to driver, and their shift starts/stop anytime, even multiple times per day.
  - randomdata 2y ago
    What is significant is that it makes clear that the employer has control over the schedule. An independent contractor must be able to show full autonomy over their schedule to be recognized as such. As soon as a business hiring a supposed contractor tries to define the schedule, there is no question about the arrangement. The worker will be deemed an employee and not a contractor. This is one of the primary litmus tests used if there is any question about whether a worker is an employee or operating independently. Lyft, Uber, et. al. would absolutely benefit from being able to dictate when you are expected to work. Not having enough drivers during peak usage is quite problematic to their business model. But they cannot exert that pressure if they wish to maintain that the workers are independent operators. Tradeoffs... Yes, strong negotiating on the worker's end could see agreements made where the employee still has full autonomy over their schedule. This exception is noted. However, if a worker has that kind of strong negotiating power, who cares about being an employee? As before, the only advantage to being an employee is that the most powerful negotiator of all – the government – will step up and do some basic negotiating on your behalf. But if you are in a strong negotiating position yourself, you don't really need the help anyway.

consumer451 2y ago

We are all easily programmed meat machines, myself included. Anyone who believes otherwise is just plain unaware.

Jensson 2y ago

It does mean you can no longer choose when to work, it doesn't mean fixed shifts but it means you can't drive whenever you want since now they have obligations towards you even when you aren't making them any money. Other jobs where you can do work whenever flexible shifts are fine, but that doesn't apply to taxi driving since there work aren't available everywhere at all times, you have to follow schedules to follow the demand since now the company has to pay you even when you don't have a passenger around.

deepsun 2y ago
So? Restaurants have to pay money to waiters even when there are no customers. It doesn't mean waiters can not be employees. They _must_ be employees. By the way, restaurants (except for few good ones, like Zazie in SF) don't pay minimum wages by offsetting it with tips. But if employee reports less tips than minimum wage for the same hours, the employer must pay the difference to bump it to minimum wage anyway.
- Jcowell 2y ago
  But it is the difference of being able to turn on the app and choose when you want and don’t want to drive vs having to work in a time box that might or might no convent for you. A waiter cannot decide to not work one day without getting approval from their bosses/managers
  - deepsun 2y ago
    Again this lie. Department of Labor does NOT require employers to enforce any schedules. Some employers do, but they might as well just make a button "check in" / "check out", available any time. DoL is fine with that. A waiter can have an agreement with their boss to work whenever they like. Boss most certainly disagree, but it's boss's decision to enforce schedules. DoL doesn't care. Boss can as well agree and put a whiteboard and let waiters check in / check out by writing on it any time. Same as Uber/Lyft can make the buttons in the app (they already do). Of course, Uber/Lyft can, at their will, enforce the fixed schedules. But it will be obviously bad for their business. And no one requires them to do it, so naturally it would be beneficial to them to not enforce any fixed schedules.

refurb 2y ago

I mean how else would it work for something like Lyft/Uber? Drivers decide when to work? Then the employer is obligated to pay a minimum hourly wage and minimum hours? You could game that system easily. Just "choose" to work during the slowest times possible. Don't have to do any rides, but you get guaranteed pay.

autoexec 2y ago
There are lots of jobs where some people choose to work the slow hours. Overnight shifts and very early mornings for example. Turns out working those kinds of hours isn't for everyone, and companies only hire as many people as they need. At a certain point, some people are basically paid for being available when they're needed, not for the number of customers they churn through. That said, I've seen taxi drivers who got an hourly wage no matter if they got a rider or not go out of their way to get more fairs because they got tips and more hours including overtime hours.
- diebeforei485 2y ago
  > There are lots of jobs where some people choose to work the slow hours. And the employment agreement typically does not allow the employee to also work for a competitor during their employment. And there is nothing stopping the employer from changing or reducing the hours, unless the employment agreement has provisions about that. You might think that Uber should hire some drivers on fixed shifts because there is some baseline of demand. The issue is, in a growing number of cities, AV's play that role. There are some examples where employees have to work specific shifts but still get paid less depending on what they're doing. Notably flight attendants. They might not get paid while waiting at the airport if the plane needs maintenance prior to boarding.
  - autoexec 2y ago
    > There are some examples where employees have to work specific shifts but still get paid less depending on what they're doing. That sounds reasonable, so long as their base pay is enough that they can support themselves at full time hours.

randomdata 2y ago

Wrong link? The one you provided states: "The Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) has no provisions regarding the scheduling of employees, with the exception of certain child labor provisions. Therefore, an employer may change an employee's work hours without giving prior notice or obtaining the employee's consent" Which is the fixed shift the driver speaks of. Granted, it, as you would expect, offers the caveat: "(unless otherwise subject to a prior agreement between the employer and employee or the employee's representative)" However, if you can't already negotiate what you want out of these businesses... After all, that is the only advantage to being an employee: The government will do a baseline amount of negotiating for you – but clearly isn't willing to here.

deepsun 2y ago
No, it's the other way around. It says that employer does not have to provide any schedules. It may as well make a button in the app "check in/out" to driver, and their shift starts/stop anytime, even multiple times per day.
- randomdata 2y ago
  What is significant is that it makes clear that the employer has control over the schedule. An independent contractor must be able to show full autonomy over their schedule to be recognized as such. As soon as a business hiring a supposed contractor tries to define the schedule, there is no question about the arrangement. The worker will be deemed an employee and not a contractor. This is one of the primary litmus tests used if there is any question about whether a worker is an employee or operating independently. Lyft, Uber, et. al. would absolutely benefit from being able to dictate when you are expected to work. Not having enough drivers during peak usage is quite problematic to their business model. But they cannot exert that pressure if they wish to maintain that the workers are independent operators. Tradeoffs... Yes, strong negotiating on the worker's end could see agreements made where the employee still has full autonomy over their schedule. This exception is noted. However, if a worker has that kind of strong negotiating power, who cares about being an employee? As before, the only advantage to being an employee is that the most powerful negotiator of all – the government – will step up and do some basic negotiating on your behalf. But if you are in a strong negotiating position yourself, you don't really need the help anyway.