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>> Couldn't it just be argued that free market extremism is as much folly as a pro-central planning position? You shouldn't have a problem demonstrating this t

by nec4b 2y ago

>> Couldn't it just be argued that free market extremism is as much folly as a pro-central planning position? You shouldn't have a problem demonstrating this then? It's easy to enumerate all failed central planned economies, there really never was one that succeeded. Why don't you give an example of country that failed miserable with millions of deaths because of too much free markets.

Apocryphon 2y ago
1990s Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union? Crash in standards of living, skyrocketing alcoholism and suicides, societal immiseration. https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2022/03/22/1087654279/how-shock-therapy-created-russian-oligarchs-and-paved-the-path-for-putin https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2022/03/22/1087654279/how... https://www.britannica.com/place/Russia/Post-Soviet-Russia https://www.britannica.com/place/Russia/Post-Soviet-Russia https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/alcohol-blamed-half-90s-russian-deaths-flna1C9450713 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/alcohol-blamed-ha... An infestation of pyramid schemes (also happened in post-communist Albania, too, leading to civil war). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_schemes_in_Albania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_schemes_in_Albania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Albanian_civil_unrest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Albanian_civil_unrest
- nec4b 2y ago
  How are the events you listed a consequence of too much free markets? You just proved my point with your examples. Collapse of the Soviet Union was literally a direct consequence of failed central planing. It didn't work that is way it collapsed, hence crash in standard of living. Pyramid schemes were also very popular in the eastern European countries before the fall of communism as well.
  - Apocryphon 2y ago
    And what replaced central planning in those countries, and proved unable to stop the crash?
    - WalterBright 2y ago
      The various Soviet republics each tried differing approaches. The most free market one was Poland's, and Poland had the most success with it.
      - Apocryphon 2y ago
        That is interesting to hear and would be worth looking into.
aguaviva 2y ago
Why don't you give an example of country that failed miserable with millions of deaths because of too much free markets. The beauty of capitalism is that it works (or seems to work for some people, for the time being) by externalizing its true costs to other countries, other social strata -- and indeed far into the future. Though mortality rates seem not to have risen (and may in fact declined) in the U.S. during the peak depression years (1930-1933) -- as a global phenomenon, the collapse of a system based on "too much free markets" is generally seen as one of the primary drivers of WW2, so we would have to attribute some share of its 70-85 million fatalities this market-driven collapse as well. And not just by accident. There's also the fact that "free market" interests and Western financial support were key to Hitler and Mussolini's rise to power in the first place, as the former saw the latter as a perhaps unsavory but ultimately necessary bulwark against the rising spectre of a global socialist movement (whether on the Bolshevik model or otherwise). Plus the whole European colonial project in Asia, Africa and the Americas, and the several hundred million deaths that it brought to the table. Though to be fair, this wasn't so much a matter of any collapse of the free market system of the time -- but rather of it working exactly as it was intended, from the very start. And of course now we're headed for a much larger disaster with likely at least as many hundred millions of deaths looming on the horizon -- in the form of climate change and its attendant disruptions, also very much a direct result of "too much free markets". So there you go.
- WalterBright 2y ago
  > The beauty of capitalism is that it works (or seems to work for some people, for the time being) by externalizing its true costs to other countries, other social strata -- and indeed far into the future. Are there any sustainable socialist economies by any metric? > European colonial project Colonialism is not free market. > also very much a direct result of "too much free markets" Again, communist countries are the most polluted ones. The reason is straightforward - their economies produced so little, they couldn't afford environmental protection costs.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    Are there any sustainable socialist economies by any metric? China has hit it out of the park, I think it's quite fair to say. (Could easily name a whole bunch more, but gotta keep this short. It's also a moot subject, per my last item below). Colonialism is not free market. That's the thing -- "free market" societies have never really been free, once externalities are accounted for. But the multi-century European colonial project was no mere externality. Its genesis, ideology and economics were inseparable from the development of Western-style capitalism as we know it. Again, communist countries are the most polluted ones. The reason is straightforward - their economies produced so little, they couldn't afford environmental protection costs. I wouldn't be so sure about that. But this also gets into a much more important topic we've been leaving out: there's no dichotomy between "socialism" and "capitalism" -- and never was. Nearly every modern, large-scale economy has been a working hybrid of both systems. Even the good ole' USA.

by nec4b 2y ago

Apocryphon 2y ago

1990s Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union? Crash in standards of living, skyrocketing alcoholism and suicides, societal immiseration. https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2022/03/22/1087654279/how-shock-therapy-created-russian-oligarchs-and-paved-the-path-for-putin https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2022/03/22/1087654279/how... https://www.britannica.com/place/Russia/Post-Soviet-Russia https://www.britannica.com/place/Russia/Post-Soviet-Russia https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/alcohol-blamed-half-90s-russian-deaths-flna1C9450713 https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/alcohol-blamed-ha... An infestation of pyramid schemes (also happened in post-communist Albania, too, leading to civil war). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_schemes_in_Albania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_schemes_in_Albania https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Albanian_civil_unrest https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Albanian_civil_unrest

nec4b 2y ago
How are the events you listed a consequence of too much free markets? You just proved my point with your examples. Collapse of the Soviet Union was literally a direct consequence of failed central planing. It didn't work that is way it collapsed, hence crash in standard of living. Pyramid schemes were also very popular in the eastern European countries before the fall of communism as well.
- Apocryphon 2y ago
  And what replaced central planning in those countries, and proved unable to stop the crash?
  - WalterBright 2y ago
    The various Soviet republics each tried differing approaches. The most free market one was Poland's, and Poland had the most success with it.
    - Apocryphon 2y ago
      That is interesting to hear and would be worth looking into.

aguaviva 2y ago

Why don't you give an example of country that failed miserable with millions of deaths because of too much free markets. The beauty of capitalism is that it works (or seems to work for some people, for the time being) by externalizing its true costs to other countries, other social strata -- and indeed far into the future. Though mortality rates seem not to have risen (and may in fact declined) in the U.S. during the peak depression years (1930-1933) -- as a global phenomenon, the collapse of a system based on "too much free markets" is generally seen as one of the primary drivers of WW2, so we would have to attribute some share of its 70-85 million fatalities this market-driven collapse as well. And not just by accident. There's also the fact that "free market" interests and Western financial support were key to Hitler and Mussolini's rise to power in the first place, as the former saw the latter as a perhaps unsavory but ultimately necessary bulwark against the rising spectre of a global socialist movement (whether on the Bolshevik model or otherwise). Plus the whole European colonial project in Asia, Africa and the Americas, and the several hundred million deaths that it brought to the table. Though to be fair, this wasn't so much a matter of any collapse of the free market system of the time -- but rather of it working exactly as it was intended, from the very start. And of course now we're headed for a much larger disaster with likely at least as many hundred millions of deaths looming on the horizon -- in the form of climate change and its attendant disruptions, also very much a direct result of "too much free markets". So there you go.

WalterBright 2y ago
> The beauty of capitalism is that it works (or seems to work for some people, for the time being) by externalizing its true costs to other countries, other social strata -- and indeed far into the future. Are there any sustainable socialist economies by any metric? > European colonial project Colonialism is not free market. > also very much a direct result of "too much free markets" Again, communist countries are the most polluted ones. The reason is straightforward - their economies produced so little, they couldn't afford environmental protection costs.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  Are there any sustainable socialist economies by any metric? China has hit it out of the park, I think it's quite fair to say. (Could easily name a whole bunch more, but gotta keep this short. It's also a moot subject, per my last item below). Colonialism is not free market. That's the thing -- "free market" societies have never really been free, once externalities are accounted for. But the multi-century European colonial project was no mere externality. Its genesis, ideology and economics were inseparable from the development of Western-style capitalism as we know it. Again, communist countries are the most polluted ones. The reason is straightforward - their economies produced so little, they couldn't afford environmental protection costs. I wouldn't be so sure about that. But this also gets into a much more important topic we've been leaving out: there's no dichotomy between "socialism" and "capitalism" -- and never was. Nearly every modern, large-scale economy has been a working hybrid of both systems. Even the good ole' USA.