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This is why I stopped donating to IA, and I will not donate until they get new leadership. I'm a very big supporter of a lot of what IA does, but I feel if I d

This is why I stopped donating to IA, and I will not donate until they get new leadership. I'm a very big supporter of a lot of what IA does, but I feel if I donate, my money is just going to fund more and more legal defenses because Brewster Kahle is being stubborn, and I'm afraid it's going to lead to the entire Archive being shut down. I've mentioned this before, but there are lots of cases where IA will let you download full video games for the switch that are still being actively sold [1]. The same applies to a lot of movies and TV shows, available via torrents no less. Before someone gives me a lecture about data harboring laws and fair use, I know that it is technically on the copyright holder to issue takedown requests for infringing material, but even still, I think they'd be smart to be a bit proactive about this. If I know that the Internet Archive is an easy place to get pirated material, then I'm quite confident that their staff does as well. If there's even one employee email that implies that they know about pirated content but didn't bother taking it down, then I think that's grounds for a lawsuit (though I'm not a lawyer). Much as I respect him for founding IA, I think that Kahle needs to be replaced as a leader. [1] I'm not going to link it here because I'm not sure HN's policy on potentially legally dubious material, but it is not hard to find.

jrflowers 2y ago
> IA will let you download full video games for the switch that are still being actively sold [1] I am not seeing that anywhere. I see a file called “My Nintendo Switch games collection” and it is a big jpeg photo of a bookshelf. Is this what you mean?
- opan 2y ago
  It's harder to find them than I expected, but one search with a result is "super mario wonder nsp". I had the advantage of knowing the format(s) Switch game dumps come in, though, so the average person might not find much.
  - jrflowers 2y ago
    I’m getting a “no results found” response from that search. Maybe it has already been taken down?
    - codetrotter 2y ago
      Did you accidentally search in the Wayback Machine search box instead of in the Internet Archive search box below it? The former searches website snapshots, the latter searches books, films, audio, etc that is in the part of the Internet Archive that contains itemized data.
      - jrflowers 2y ago
        Woops. I am apparently an idiot!
    - Dalewyn 2y ago
      Here ya go: https://archive.org/details/super-mario-bros.-wonder-nspe-shop https://archive.org/details/super-mario-bros.-wonder-nspe-sh... Note to dang and friends: Not condoning piracy or whatever, this is simply to prove a point that Internet Archive hosts and distributes warez with wanton abandon.
      - jrflowers 2y ago
        I’m kind of curious how this indicates “wanton abandon” Have you downloaded and checked this file to make sure that it is a playable copy of Super Mario Wonder rather than some other file labeled as such? Have you reported it, and if so how long ago?
        Dalewyn 2y ago
        All you have to do to find warez of all sorts is take a casual browse through their software library. Most of it is actually supplied by ordinary users unrelated to Internet Archive with little to no oversight or curation. I have no idea how effective reporting is, but I would bet it's not meaningful given the prevailing prevalence of warez. And yes, I've downloaded some of those warez and they have all worked. I would advise not white knighting for Internet Archive and instead judge them for what they actually are. I honestly think the software library is actually a far bigger liability risk than the book piracy scheme. Software developers and publishers are just as vindicative as book authors and publishers if you paint a big enough target on your stupid ass and there's a lot more dollars at play.
- 0x1ch 2y ago
  I'm heavy into the tracker and open water scenes. IA is most certainly holding some amount of content that is copyrighted and currently sold like they mentioned. It's just not easy to find.
  - jonny_eh 2y ago
    > IA is most certainly holding some amount of content that is copyrighted and currently sold like they mentioned. It's just not easy to find. You could say the same of YouTube. As long as they take down copywritten works when asked, they should be fine.
    - N1ckFG 2y ago
      Afaik they do respond to DMCA requests for the individual uploads, and they do more active curation for the collections where only specific user accounts have upload access.
    - tombert 2y ago
      I don't think that YouTube is a fair comparison. YouTube very proactively tries to avoid copyright infringement, going so far as to allow copyright holders to upload copies of their media so that it be used to detect potential copyright violations. This obviously can lead to a lot of false positives, and I'm not claiming it's in any way perfect, but it more or less ensures that YouTube stays within compliance of copyright law, or at the very least makes it fairly unlikely that they will be directly sued for hosting copyrighted material. > As long as they take down copywritten works when asked, they should be fine. I think that's broadly true, but if they're aware of copyrighted material being distributed on their platform and they choose not to do anything about it, data harboring laws only go so far. If there are internal emails of employees noticing violations, and choosing not to do anything, then it's more like Napster or Megaupload, and less like YouTube. In some sense, I think even ThePirateBay might be less guilty of distribution of copyrighted material, simply because ThePirateBay doesn't actually host any of the copyrighted material themselves, simply torrents/magnet links that point to peers that have it. The thing is, I really don't want to shit on IA, and I don't even personally have much issue with people violating US copyright law, but my opinion on this really doesn't matter. The law is the law, if you break it you risk criminal charges or lawsuits. That's just kind of how society works, and I feel that IA's flagrant disregard for it is going to get them sued to oblivion, taking down stuff like The Wayback Machine with it.
A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
I will admit that I am personally on the fence. I knew for a while that IA was in legal crosshairs and I actually encouraged people to donate to it on this very forum. I am not sure it is fair to stop donations over one miscalculation. Their core mission remains in place and IA is more important to the ecosystem than wikipedia. Not to mention, with this appeal lost, it is not unlikely other entities will try take IA out.
- mixologic 2y ago
  Fair though to hesitate over donating if you believe that your donations are not going to go towards the valueable core mission, and instead be misdirected to ill advised legal crusades.
  - tombert 2y ago
    That's the thing. Extreme hyperbolic example, and to be clear I am not actually accusing anyone of anything, but imagine that there were evidence that Brewster was using IA donations to fund a meth addiction. I don't think anyone would blame me for stopping donations to that because my intent was for the money to go to archiving, not drugs. I don't think Brewster does meth, and even if he does I don't think that he's spending IA money to do it, but I do think he's spending IA money in pursuit of a lot of lawsuits that are a result of flagrant disregard for copyright law, at which point it feels more like I'm funding a lobbyist group, not an archive. To be clear, I really dislike US copyright law, and I'm not even really opposed to people breaking it, but my opinion of of the law is somewhat irrelevant. The fact is that flagrant disregard for it at the level of IA means that lawsuits are going to happen. I don't really want to spend money on that, though obviously it's fine if other people want to.
dark-star 2y ago
> IA will let you download full video games for the switch that are still being actively sold That's a weak argument that is the same as saying "BitTorrent is bad because you can download illegal stuff" or" file hosters should be banned because I found $illegal_thing on this one" Yes, a free upload service will get abused. And yes, they are very quick to take these kinds of warez downloads offline when someone notifies them.
- TeaBrain 2y ago
  That example isn't the same at all. BitTorrent is just an application for torrenting. It isn't an organization centrally hosting content like IA is. Both Megaupload and Rapidshare are much more similar examples of sites that allowed anonymous distribution from central servers. Megaupload was taken down and Rapidshare ended anonymous file sharing after the Megaupload takedown.
  - dark-star 2y ago
    MEgaupload and Rapidshare were taken down because they ignored takedown requests from rights holders and just gave them the middle finger. That was obviously a very bad idea. OTOH all the hundreds of free file hosters that exist today don't get into trouble, simply because they take stuff down when notified.
orbisvicis 2y ago
So the IA should be forked; you can support the fork and people like me Brewster Kahle's original. People who frequent libraries think CDL at retail prices is just; others that it is an end-run around publisher's rights. But libraries pay so much for their limited-lending copies! Why isn't there any support for regional or global libraries? Publishers are like a syndicate but there's no opposing union so they run ramshod over the proletariat. Are libraries not good things? Beacons of culture and so forth? The IA clearly can't afford to fund CDL at library rates, but can't it get funding! Why won't the government step in and decree a federal library? Depending on geography, you're local library is probably already funded at the state and federal level.
- tombert 2y ago
  Whether I think that the CDL or NEL is a good idea or not is irrelevant, and orthogonal to my point. The fact that IA disregards copyright law and seems to have a "wait to be sued" mentality means that the donations end up feeling more like lobbying money and less like funding an actual Archive. I'd be totally fine with a CDL being codified into law, and I'd even be fine with IA's version of it, but it doesn't change the fact that Brewster is treating IA like an ideological mission now more than an Archive. If you want to donate your money to it, that's obviously fine, but I think that it's important to be honest about it.
dandellion 2y ago
Same here, long time supporter for many years. Stopped donating after they announced the emergency library thing during covid, it was immediately obvious that they were shooting themselves in the foot with it and the IA was cooked.

jrflowers 2y ago

> IA will let you download full video games for the switch that are still being actively sold [1] I am not seeing that anywhere. I see a file called “My Nintendo Switch games collection” and it is a big jpeg photo of a bookshelf. Is this what you mean?

opan 2y ago
It's harder to find them than I expected, but one search with a result is "super mario wonder nsp". I had the advantage of knowing the format(s) Switch game dumps come in, though, so the average person might not find much.
- jrflowers 2y ago
  I’m getting a “no results found” response from that search. Maybe it has already been taken down?
  - codetrotter 2y ago
    Did you accidentally search in the Wayback Machine search box instead of in the Internet Archive search box below it? The former searches website snapshots, the latter searches books, films, audio, etc that is in the part of the Internet Archive that contains itemized data.
    - jrflowers 2y ago
      Woops. I am apparently an idiot!
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    Here ya go: https://archive.org/details/super-mario-bros.-wonder-nspe-shop https://archive.org/details/super-mario-bros.-wonder-nspe-sh... Note to dang and friends: Not condoning piracy or whatever, this is simply to prove a point that Internet Archive hosts and distributes warez with wanton abandon.
    - jrflowers 2y ago
      I’m kind of curious how this indicates “wanton abandon” Have you downloaded and checked this file to make sure that it is a playable copy of Super Mario Wonder rather than some other file labeled as such? Have you reported it, and if so how long ago?
      - Dalewyn 2y ago
        All you have to do to find warez of all sorts is take a casual browse through their software library. Most of it is actually supplied by ordinary users unrelated to Internet Archive with little to no oversight or curation. I have no idea how effective reporting is, but I would bet it's not meaningful given the prevailing prevalence of warez. And yes, I've downloaded some of those warez and they have all worked. I would advise not white knighting for Internet Archive and instead judge them for what they actually are. I honestly think the software library is actually a far bigger liability risk than the book piracy scheme. Software developers and publishers are just as vindicative as book authors and publishers if you paint a big enough target on your stupid ass and there's a lot more dollars at play.
0x1ch 2y ago
I'm heavy into the tracker and open water scenes. IA is most certainly holding some amount of content that is copyrighted and currently sold like they mentioned. It's just not easy to find.
- jonny_eh 2y ago
  > IA is most certainly holding some amount of content that is copyrighted and currently sold like they mentioned. It's just not easy to find. You could say the same of YouTube. As long as they take down copywritten works when asked, they should be fine.
  - N1ckFG 2y ago
    Afaik they do respond to DMCA requests for the individual uploads, and they do more active curation for the collections where only specific user accounts have upload access.
  - tombert 2y ago
    I don't think that YouTube is a fair comparison. YouTube very proactively tries to avoid copyright infringement, going so far as to allow copyright holders to upload copies of their media so that it be used to detect potential copyright violations. This obviously can lead to a lot of false positives, and I'm not claiming it's in any way perfect, but it more or less ensures that YouTube stays within compliance of copyright law, or at the very least makes it fairly unlikely that they will be directly sued for hosting copyrighted material. > As long as they take down copywritten works when asked, they should be fine. I think that's broadly true, but if they're aware of copyrighted material being distributed on their platform and they choose not to do anything about it, data harboring laws only go so far. If there are internal emails of employees noticing violations, and choosing not to do anything, then it's more like Napster or Megaupload, and less like YouTube. In some sense, I think even ThePirateBay might be less guilty of distribution of copyrighted material, simply because ThePirateBay doesn't actually host any of the copyrighted material themselves, simply torrents/magnet links that point to peers that have it. The thing is, I really don't want to shit on IA, and I don't even personally have much issue with people violating US copyright law, but my opinion on this really doesn't matter. The law is the law, if you break it you risk criminal charges or lawsuits. That's just kind of how society works, and I feel that IA's flagrant disregard for it is going to get them sued to oblivion, taking down stuff like The Wayback Machine with it.

A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago

I will admit that I am personally on the fence. I knew for a while that IA was in legal crosshairs and I actually encouraged people to donate to it on this very forum. I am not sure it is fair to stop donations over one miscalculation. Their core mission remains in place and IA is more important to the ecosystem than wikipedia. Not to mention, with this appeal lost, it is not unlikely other entities will try take IA out.

mixologic 2y ago
Fair though to hesitate over donating if you believe that your donations are not going to go towards the valueable core mission, and instead be misdirected to ill advised legal crusades.
- tombert 2y ago
  That's the thing. Extreme hyperbolic example, and to be clear I am not actually accusing anyone of anything, but imagine that there were evidence that Brewster was using IA donations to fund a meth addiction. I don't think anyone would blame me for stopping donations to that because my intent was for the money to go to archiving, not drugs. I don't think Brewster does meth, and even if he does I don't think that he's spending IA money to do it, but I do think he's spending IA money in pursuit of a lot of lawsuits that are a result of flagrant disregard for copyright law, at which point it feels more like I'm funding a lobbyist group, not an archive. To be clear, I really dislike US copyright law, and I'm not even really opposed to people breaking it, but my opinion of of the law is somewhat irrelevant. The fact is that flagrant disregard for it at the level of IA means that lawsuits are going to happen. I don't really want to spend money on that, though obviously it's fine if other people want to.

dark-star 2y ago

> IA will let you download full video games for the switch that are still being actively sold That's a weak argument that is the same as saying "BitTorrent is bad because you can download illegal stuff" or" file hosters should be banned because I found $illegal_thing on this one" Yes, a free upload service will get abused. And yes, they are very quick to take these kinds of warez downloads offline when someone notifies them.

TeaBrain 2y ago
That example isn't the same at all. BitTorrent is just an application for torrenting. It isn't an organization centrally hosting content like IA is. Both Megaupload and Rapidshare are much more similar examples of sites that allowed anonymous distribution from central servers. Megaupload was taken down and Rapidshare ended anonymous file sharing after the Megaupload takedown.
- dark-star 2y ago
  MEgaupload and Rapidshare were taken down because they ignored takedown requests from rights holders and just gave them the middle finger. That was obviously a very bad idea. OTOH all the hundreds of free file hosters that exist today don't get into trouble, simply because they take stuff down when notified.

orbisvicis 2y ago

So the IA should be forked; you can support the fork and people like me Brewster Kahle's original. People who frequent libraries think CDL at retail prices is just; others that it is an end-run around publisher's rights. But libraries pay so much for their limited-lending copies! Why isn't there any support for regional or global libraries? Publishers are like a syndicate but there's no opposing union so they run ramshod over the proletariat. Are libraries not good things? Beacons of culture and so forth? The IA clearly can't afford to fund CDL at library rates, but can't it get funding! Why won't the government step in and decree a federal library? Depending on geography, you're local library is probably already funded at the state and federal level.

tombert 2y ago
Whether I think that the CDL or NEL is a good idea or not is irrelevant, and orthogonal to my point. The fact that IA disregards copyright law and seems to have a "wait to be sued" mentality means that the donations end up feeling more like lobbying money and less like funding an actual Archive. I'd be totally fine with a CDL being codified into law, and I'd even be fine with IA's version of it, but it doesn't change the fact that Brewster is treating IA like an ideological mission now more than an Archive. If you want to donate your money to it, that's obviously fine, but I think that it's important to be honest about it.

dandellion 2y ago

Same here, long time supporter for many years. Stopped donating after they announced the emergency library thing during covid, it was immediately obvious that they were shooting themselves in the foot with it and the IA was cooked.