8 ms·

Tire-related chemical responsible for salmon deaths in urban streams (2020)

147 points by deegles 2y ago

aaronbrethorst 2y ago
[2020] I was confused to see this pop up now as this feels like common knowledge in Seattle, but the 2020 date on the article definitely clarifies that.
- sva_ 2y ago
  Ah yas, I knew I read about this before on here several times: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25431550 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25431550 343 points on Dec 16, 2020 | 152 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40223253 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40223253 177 points 4 months ago | 166 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25311636 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25311636 88 points on Dec 5, 2020 | 49 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25298850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25298850 51 points on Dec 4, 2020 | 8 comments And probably more...
matt123456789 2y ago
6PPD -> 6PPD-quinone
twojacobtwo 2y ago
For those wondering what the chemical is and its purpose: >6PPD helps by reacting with ozone before it can react with the tire rubber, sparing the tires. >But when 6PPD reacts with ozone, the researchers found that it was transformed into multiple chemicals, including 6PPD-quinone (pronounced “kwih-known”), the toxic chemical that is responsible for killing the salmon.
- cyberax 2y ago
  > 6PPD helps by reacting with ozone before it can react with the tire rubber, sparing the tires. BTW, these kinds of molecules are known as "anti-oxidants". Use that knowledge to blow up the brains of people who think that "anti-oxidant" is some natural healing magic.
  - DFHippie 2y ago
    I don't think anyone things anti-oxidants in tires are natural healing magic, so brains are unlikely to be blown.
    - cyberax 2y ago
      Plenty of people think that anti-oxidants _in_ _general_ are magical healing dust.
  - grues-dinner 2y ago
    If you could finally stop humans oxidising, you could keep all that carbon in them nice and sequestered, and massively curtail lifetime carbon-intensive emissions. Another great win for antioxidants: nature's miracle cure for humanity!
clumsysmurf 2y ago
I wonder if we are inhaling this. I live in Phoenix, and when I go out at night with a good flashlight, the amount of stuff in the air, visible in the beam, is crazy. I imagine some is dirt among other things, but wonder if the micropastics of the tires are airborne as well. Since it hardly ever rains here it probably just accumulates on the roads and gets kicked up with activity.
- kyleee 2y ago
  Must be to some degree. And brake dust
- adriand 2y ago
  That urban black dust that accumulates on lawn furniture etc., how much of that is tires? The colour seems right.
  - DFHippie 2y ago
    I believe a lot of that is soot from diesel exhaust. And the two-cycle motors people use to mow their lawns and blow their leaves are amazingly polluting. Some of it might be the motor oil and partially-combusted gasoline they spew out. I'm curious what the balance is.
- hedora 2y ago
  Wikipedia says it’s in most people’s urine, so yes (unless most people lick tires). Health effects in humans are unknown.
- ClumsyPilot 2y ago
  They find microplastics in human brain tissue, we are thoroughly fucked
carapace 2y ago
Salmon bring a limiting factor to growth (phosphorous if I remember correctly) from the ocean to the land, then the bears and other animals eat them and distribute it throughout the forests through their dung. (The Native Americans around the PNW had a name for this but we just figured they were talking about nature spirits or something.) Cars -> tire dust -> dead salmon -> reduced phosphorous -> sick forest
- morkalork 2y ago
  Do they bring that significant of an amount in the one time a year they come to breed?
  - randerson 2y ago
    I read a recent article[0] that corroborates this. > certain tree species' ability to grow up to three times faster when supported by the nutrients salmon bring to a forest's ecosystem [0] https://www.npr.org/sections/the-picture-show/2024/09/03/g-s1-5057/photographer-captures-life-in-old-growth-forests https://www.npr.org/sections/the-picture-show/2024/09/03/g-s...
- cyberax 2y ago
  Nope. Fish is not the main source of phosphorus, it's the rock weathering.
- Enginerrrd 2y ago
  Not to worry, we are putting plenty of phosphorous into most waterways.
1-6 2y ago
That’s remarkable investigative work done by researchers. I hope schools keep fostering this type of education to improve communities and bring change to fast-moving industries.
- twoWhlsGud 2y ago
  And it appears to have resulted in a set of responses: https://www.epa.gov/chemical-research/6ppd-quinone https://www.epa.gov/chemical-research/6ppd-quinone https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/epa-develops-6ppd-q-water-testing-method-widespread-use https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/epa-develops-6ppd-q-water-t... https://www.ustires.org/largest-global-tire-industry-consortium-releases-preliminary-6ppd-alternatives-analysis-report https://www.ustires.org/largest-global-tire-industry-consort... so we're a long way from testing before widespread use or the like, but at least when something dramatic shows up it can sometimes lead to potential mitigations.
ExMachina73 2y ago
I see articles like this about microplastics turning up in the environment and it doesn't surprise me at all. Almost a century of millions and millions of cars going through tires how could it not. In the future they'll ask what killed everyone? It was tires man. Tires.
- erie 2y ago
  And with EV the problem would be bigger as the frequency of replacing EV tires is higher due to heavier weights of EVs.'Emissions Analytics found that a single car sheds almost nine pounds of tire weight per year, on average. Globally, that amounts to 6 million metric tons of tire pollution annually, with most of it coming from wealthier countries where personal car use is more prevalent. The amount of tire pollution emitted per vehicle is increasing as more electric cars hit the road around the world — some 14 million of them this year, according to the International Energy Agency. EVs tend to be significantly heavier than gas-powered or hybrid cars due to their larger, heftier batteries. The average battery for an EV on the market today is roughly 1,000 pounds, with some outliers approaching 3,000 pounds — as much as an entire gasoline-powered compact car.'
  - amluto 2y ago
    EVs with effective regenerative braking release less brake dust. Choose your poison.
    - kjkjadksj 2y ago
      Manual transmission ice cars also have this feature
  - Cpoll 2y ago
    > Emissions Analytics found that a single car sheds almost nine pounds of tire weight per year, on average. Is that referring to EVs? That number is surprising considering a tire only weighs ~25lbs. 9lbs/year means the tires are half-gone (and long since threadbare) in 5 years.
cyberax 2y ago
6PPD-quinone is alone not enough to explain the salmon decline, the concentrations of 6PPD-Q mostly peak near urban areas after the start of the rainy season. However, replacing 6PPD with a different anti-oxidant is a no-brainer. There are plenty of other alternatives, and this time the industry is making sure to pick something that won't be toxic to some form of bumblebee after exposure to nitrogen oxides. There's a report with the list of best alternatives so far: https://www.ustires.org/largest-global-tire-industry-consortium-releases-preliminary-6ppd-alternatives-analysis-report https://www.ustires.org/largest-global-tire-industry-consort...
- mattgrice 2y ago
  I am quite certain that nobody ever claimed that banning 6-PPD was enough. I get your sentiment, it's totally not enough. Especially since it hasn't been banned, and to the extent progress has been made, it looks like they are slow-walking it. The cuyahoga river caught fire in cleveland in 1969, the EPA was founded about 1.5 years later, the bill signed by Nixon. You are correct, we are not doing enough.
- steve_adams_86 2y ago
  I know here in BC there was a virus we determined to be a major factor in salmon deaths (largely spread by salmon farms along the coast), which lead to respiratory damage in the fish immediately before they would spawn. At the time, our department of fisheries was saying “we know this isn’t the sole cause of the decline, but it’s a significant part of it” and other factors were thought to be overfishing, climate change, and pollutants. So, this dovetails nicely with that theory. One of the things they stressed was that we probably wouldn’t be overfishing if the pollutants and disease factors were gone. This message, I believe, lead to a lot of bad press for fish farms which thankfully lead to a lack of support and the eventual removal of them from our waters (though we still have some remaining, eventually they will be gone). If we can solve the pollution factor, maybe we will see improved salmon returns. If people are aware of which pollutants to target, perhaps we will see a similar revolt against them like we did with fish farms. Here’s hoping.
at_a_remove 2y ago
Someone with more examples and a greater understanding, not to mention eloquence, than I ought to come out with a book going over, in tremendous detail, how much of our chemical engineering "miracles of science!" were created to replace mechanical processes or reduce power requirements. Polish regularly? No, we will just manufacture a coating! Filtering? No, flocculating agents! More insulation on that refrigerator? No, here's this new refrigerant! Sugar cane makes the vats hard to clean ... but high fructose corn syrup, that's the ticket. And that while a non-trivial portion of these chemical replacements are effective at what they do, we just have not considered the escape of these miracles into air, water, and soil. It just wasn't on anyone's horizon. While I love science as much as anyone else does, I am wondering if a distant human future civilization (assuming we have one), will have switched to a "this new molecule is by default dangerous until proven otherwise, over decades." Chemical engineering would grind to a halt, but might perhaps be replaced by ever-finer mechanical processes for similar results.
mattgrice 2y ago
Its been 4 years since this was known, 8-10 since it was known that something in road runoff was fatal specifically to coho salmon. And basically nothing has been done. Sure tire companies or whatever are working on a fix. If I was "working on a fix" for 4+ years with no visible milestones I woudn't have a job. people love to complain about "overregulation" but 1) coho salmon fisheries are a multi billion dollar business and 2) those people are wrong, they've almost always been wrong, possibly even greedy and heartless. and if you happen to be religious they are complicit in destroying the gifts that God gave us.
xyst 2y ago
Yet another con against the growing trend of car centric transportation.
tampontim 2y ago
[flagged]

147 points by deegles 2y ago

[2020] I was confused to see this pop up now as this feels like common knowledge in Seattle, but the 2020 date on the article definitely clarifies that.

sva_ 2y ago
Ah yas, I knew I read about this before on here several times: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25431550 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25431550 343 points on Dec 16, 2020 | 152 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40223253 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40223253 177 points 4 months ago | 166 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25311636 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25311636 88 points on Dec 5, 2020 | 49 comments https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25298850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25298850 51 points on Dec 4, 2020 | 8 comments And probably more...

matt123456789 2y ago

6PPD -> 6PPD-quinone

twojacobtwo 2y ago

For those wondering what the chemical is and its purpose: >6PPD helps by reacting with ozone before it can react with the tire rubber, sparing the tires. >But when 6PPD reacts with ozone, the researchers found that it was transformed into multiple chemicals, including 6PPD-quinone (pronounced “kwih-known”), the toxic chemical that is responsible for killing the salmon.

cyberax 2y ago
> 6PPD helps by reacting with ozone before it can react with the tire rubber, sparing the tires. BTW, these kinds of molecules are known as "anti-oxidants". Use that knowledge to blow up the brains of people who think that "anti-oxidant" is some natural healing magic.
- DFHippie 2y ago
  I don't think anyone things anti-oxidants in tires are natural healing magic, so brains are unlikely to be blown.
  - cyberax 2y ago
    Plenty of people think that anti-oxidants _in_ _general_ are magical healing dust.
- grues-dinner 2y ago
  If you could finally stop humans oxidising, you could keep all that carbon in them nice and sequestered, and massively curtail lifetime carbon-intensive emissions. Another great win for antioxidants: nature's miracle cure for humanity!

clumsysmurf 2y ago

I wonder if we are inhaling this. I live in Phoenix, and when I go out at night with a good flashlight, the amount of stuff in the air, visible in the beam, is crazy. I imagine some is dirt among other things, but wonder if the micropastics of the tires are airborne as well. Since it hardly ever rains here it probably just accumulates on the roads and gets kicked up with activity.

kyleee 2y ago
Must be to some degree. And brake dust
adriand 2y ago
That urban black dust that accumulates on lawn furniture etc., how much of that is tires? The colour seems right.
- DFHippie 2y ago
  I believe a lot of that is soot from diesel exhaust. And the two-cycle motors people use to mow their lawns and blow their leaves are amazingly polluting. Some of it might be the motor oil and partially-combusted gasoline they spew out. I'm curious what the balance is.
hedora 2y ago
Wikipedia says it’s in most people’s urine, so yes (unless most people lick tires). Health effects in humans are unknown.
ClumsyPilot 2y ago
They find microplastics in human brain tissue, we are thoroughly fucked

carapace 2y ago

Salmon bring a limiting factor to growth (phosphorous if I remember correctly) from the ocean to the land, then the bears and other animals eat them and distribute it throughout the forests through their dung. (The Native Americans around the PNW had a name for this but we just figured they were talking about nature spirits or something.) Cars -> tire dust -> dead salmon -> reduced phosphorous -> sick forest

morkalork 2y ago
Do they bring that significant of an amount in the one time a year they come to breed?
- randerson 2y ago
  I read a recent article[0] that corroborates this. > certain tree species' ability to grow up to three times faster when supported by the nutrients salmon bring to a forest's ecosystem [0] https://www.npr.org/sections/the-picture-show/2024/09/03/g-s1-5057/photographer-captures-life-in-old-growth-forests https://www.npr.org/sections/the-picture-show/2024/09/03/g-s...
cyberax 2y ago
Nope. Fish is not the main source of phosphorus, it's the rock weathering.
Enginerrrd 2y ago
Not to worry, we are putting plenty of phosphorous into most waterways.

1-6 2y ago

That’s remarkable investigative work done by researchers. I hope schools keep fostering this type of education to improve communities and bring change to fast-moving industries.

twoWhlsGud 2y ago
And it appears to have resulted in a set of responses: https://www.epa.gov/chemical-research/6ppd-quinone https://www.epa.gov/chemical-research/6ppd-quinone https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/epa-develops-6ppd-q-water-testing-method-widespread-use https://www.epa.gov/newsreleases/epa-develops-6ppd-q-water-t... https://www.ustires.org/largest-global-tire-industry-consortium-releases-preliminary-6ppd-alternatives-analysis-report https://www.ustires.org/largest-global-tire-industry-consort... so we're a long way from testing before widespread use or the like, but at least when something dramatic shows up it can sometimes lead to potential mitigations.

ExMachina73 2y ago

I see articles like this about microplastics turning up in the environment and it doesn't surprise me at all. Almost a century of millions and millions of cars going through tires how could it not. In the future they'll ask what killed everyone? It was tires man. Tires.

erie 2y ago
And with EV the problem would be bigger as the frequency of replacing EV tires is higher due to heavier weights of EVs.'Emissions Analytics found that a single car sheds almost nine pounds of tire weight per year, on average. Globally, that amounts to 6 million metric tons of tire pollution annually, with most of it coming from wealthier countries where personal car use is more prevalent. The amount of tire pollution emitted per vehicle is increasing as more electric cars hit the road around the world — some 14 million of them this year, according to the International Energy Agency. EVs tend to be significantly heavier than gas-powered or hybrid cars due to their larger, heftier batteries. The average battery for an EV on the market today is roughly 1,000 pounds, with some outliers approaching 3,000 pounds — as much as an entire gasoline-powered compact car.'
- amluto 2y ago
  EVs with effective regenerative braking release less brake dust. Choose your poison.
  - kjkjadksj 2y ago
    Manual transmission ice cars also have this feature
- Cpoll 2y ago
  > Emissions Analytics found that a single car sheds almost nine pounds of tire weight per year, on average. Is that referring to EVs? That number is surprising considering a tire only weighs ~25lbs. 9lbs/year means the tires are half-gone (and long since threadbare) in 5 years.

cyberax 2y ago

6PPD-quinone is alone not enough to explain the salmon decline, the concentrations of 6PPD-Q mostly peak near urban areas after the start of the rainy season. However, replacing 6PPD with a different anti-oxidant is a no-brainer. There are plenty of other alternatives, and this time the industry is making sure to pick something that won't be toxic to some form of bumblebee after exposure to nitrogen oxides. There's a report with the list of best alternatives so far: https://www.ustires.org/largest-global-tire-industry-consortium-releases-preliminary-6ppd-alternatives-analysis-report https://www.ustires.org/largest-global-tire-industry-consort...

mattgrice 2y ago
I am quite certain that nobody ever claimed that banning 6-PPD was enough. I get your sentiment, it's totally not enough. Especially since it hasn't been banned, and to the extent progress has been made, it looks like they are slow-walking it. The cuyahoga river caught fire in cleveland in 1969, the EPA was founded about 1.5 years later, the bill signed by Nixon. You are correct, we are not doing enough.
steve_adams_86 2y ago
I know here in BC there was a virus we determined to be a major factor in salmon deaths (largely spread by salmon farms along the coast), which lead to respiratory damage in the fish immediately before they would spawn. At the time, our department of fisheries was saying “we know this isn’t the sole cause of the decline, but it’s a significant part of it” and other factors were thought to be overfishing, climate change, and pollutants. So, this dovetails nicely with that theory. One of the things they stressed was that we probably wouldn’t be overfishing if the pollutants and disease factors were gone. This message, I believe, lead to a lot of bad press for fish farms which thankfully lead to a lack of support and the eventual removal of them from our waters (though we still have some remaining, eventually they will be gone). If we can solve the pollution factor, maybe we will see improved salmon returns. If people are aware of which pollutants to target, perhaps we will see a similar revolt against them like we did with fish farms. Here’s hoping.

at_a_remove 2y ago

Someone with more examples and a greater understanding, not to mention eloquence, than I ought to come out with a book going over, in tremendous detail, how much of our chemical engineering "miracles of science!" were created to replace mechanical processes or reduce power requirements. Polish regularly? No, we will just manufacture a coating! Filtering? No, flocculating agents! More insulation on that refrigerator? No, here's this new refrigerant! Sugar cane makes the vats hard to clean ... but high fructose corn syrup, that's the ticket. And that while a non-trivial portion of these chemical replacements are effective at what they do, we just have not considered the escape of these miracles into air, water, and soil. It just wasn't on anyone's horizon. While I love science as much as anyone else does, I am wondering if a distant human future civilization (assuming we have one), will have switched to a "this new molecule is by default dangerous until proven otherwise, over decades." Chemical engineering would grind to a halt, but might perhaps be replaced by ever-finer mechanical processes for similar results.

mattgrice 2y ago

Its been 4 years since this was known, 8-10 since it was known that something in road runoff was fatal specifically to coho salmon. And basically nothing has been done. Sure tire companies or whatever are working on a fix. If I was "working on a fix" for 4+ years with no visible milestones I woudn't have a job. people love to complain about "overregulation" but 1) coho salmon fisheries are a multi billion dollar business and 2) those people are wrong, they've almost always been wrong, possibly even greedy and heartless. and if you happen to be religious they are complicit in destroying the gifts that God gave us.

xyst 2y ago

Yet another con against the growing trend of car centric transportation.

tampontim 2y ago

[flagged]