5 ms·

"slack" is the breeding ground for discrimination. Some races, genders, etc. will give more or less slack to each other. immutable rules that apply to everyone

by itake 2y ago

"slack" is the breeding ground for discrimination. Some races, genders, etc. will give more or less slack to each other. immutable rules that apply to everyone reduces that discrimination (but obviously, the rules themselves can also be discriminatory)

rythmshifter 2y ago
Immutable rules can’t be perfect and are always at risk of being weaponized by whoever is in power at the time.
efitz 2y ago
Yep, we've had great luck with zero-tolerance laws. Why do we even need judges or juries; the law is the law and if you step one millimeter over the line, straight to jail. https://www.vox.com/2015/2/24/8101289/school-discipline-race https://www.vox.com/2015/2/24/8101289/school-discipline-race
- itake 2y ago
  > Black students are three times more likely to be suspended or expelled than white students Are Black 3x more likely to break to rules or do white students get 3x more slack?
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - hattmall 2y ago
    In my, somewhat limited experience it's that predominantly black schools have far more rule breaking AND slack, but it eventually leans to such egregious offenses that severe punishment results. Everyday common occurrences at black schools would be practically unheard of and result in immediate suspensions at white schools but wouldn't even be acknowledged.
banannaise 2y ago
You are correct, but we would have to dramatically decrease the number of rules, which would be great but appears to be a non-starter with just about everyone who has a say. You would have to dispense with a lot of rules that seem like obviously good things because of the unintended consequences.
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
Slack and ironically strict enforcement are both abused like crazy by managers to manipulate/hit on female employees in low wage jobs.
danaris 2y ago
Unfortunately, I think that uncompromising, inflexible rules are ultimately not a sustainable solution to that problem, either. Even when you're actively trying not to be discriminatory when writing such rules, you're nearly guaranteed to either make them so broad that they catch people who are genuinely doing nothing wrong or so narrow as to fail to catch a lot of obviously bad cases. No; the long-term solution, hard as it is, is to gradually push society toward a point where that sort of systemic discrimination is viewed near-universally as anathema to justice and to the health of the society as a whole, and make more rules of the type where a clear principle is outlined, a rule is stated with the principle as its foundation, and the people identifying and enforcing rule violations are assumed to be able to use reasonable human judgement.
swayvil 2y ago
The slack to do bad stuff is also the slack to do good stuff. They are one and the same. We could replace the term slack with freedom. We all like freedom. We write songs about how much we like it.
- drekipus 2y ago
  Freedom gives freedom for people to fail We must all be whipped into Utopia.
izacus 2y ago
Rules won't help you with discrimination. You can't write rules that won't be weaponized against you no matter how authoritarian you get. The trick to fixing discrimination is to have people not wish to discriminate and exert social pressure on others who might try. Trying to box in people who do evil with more bureaucracy and tighter and tighter rules is not sane. Rules can only ever be effective if they reflect the culture of a community.
AlgorithmicTime 2y ago
[dead]
arp242 2y ago
Few weeks ago I took the bus; my bank card didn't work and I didn't have quite enough cash for a ticket. Bus driver took what I had and said it was okay. Closest ATM to where I live is about 7km. This is the sort of basic compassion and humanity that needs to exist. Anything else would be cruel. This has always existed, and is increasingly made difficult by implementing systems that don't allow for these kind of exceptions. This is stripping regular normal people like that bus driver from their autonomy, and by extension, their humanity. That the bus driver could possibly maybe perhaps be racist and wouldn't have extended that kindness if I had been non-white is an entirely separate matter. Forbidding kindness because some people could possibly maybe perhaps be racist is far far worse, and will affect everyone negatively.
- ranger_danger 2y ago
  Conversely, Japan seems to get by fairly well without said slack whatsoever and a largely conformist society as a whole. Case in point, restaurant menus. Changing anything about your order is practically non-existent outside of maybe some Western chains. If it's not on the menu, you simply can't order it. All burgers come with tomatoes? Too bad. McDonald's Japan will not even sell you a large water. Even if you offer to pay full soda price, or even if you tell them to pour the soda out and then fill it with water (which is otherwise free), they simply refuse. The same situation with the bus driver would also never happen, they could easily get fired for allowing it. Train conductors even have to apologize for being early. There's also a lot more open racism and discrimination in various ways (example: drinking bar admittance or apartment rentals) and in various parts of their society that goes completely unpunished.
  - bluefirebrand 2y ago
    > Conversely, Japan seems to get by fairly well without said slack whatsoever and a largely conformist society as a whole Japan has one of the highest suicide rates in the world Their society comes at a heavy cost
    - itake 2y ago
TeMPOraL 2y ago
Yep, you're demonstrating exactly the problem GP was talking about. These demands to eliminate any possibility of discrimination are shutting down institutions and gridlocking the society. There's always someone that'll feel they're disadvantaged somehow - not just because of race or gender (the big, flashy topics), but also because the district they live in, or some minor accident, or any other reason. You try to equalize all that, you get systems that are hell to live through and don't even give you much for the trouble. Also, you can hardly talk about kindness or other good traits and behaviors, in a world where you eliminate all space for showing it. Without slack, kindness is meaningless.

by itake 2y ago

rythmshifter 2y ago

Immutable rules can’t be perfect and are always at risk of being weaponized by whoever is in power at the time.

efitz 2y ago

Yep, we've had great luck with zero-tolerance laws. Why do we even need judges or juries; the law is the law and if you step one millimeter over the line, straight to jail. https://www.vox.com/2015/2/24/8101289/school-discipline-race https://www.vox.com/2015/2/24/8101289/school-discipline-race

itake 2y ago
> Black students are three times more likely to be suspended or expelled than white students Are Black 3x more likely to break to rules or do white students get 3x more slack?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- hattmall 2y ago
  In my, somewhat limited experience it's that predominantly black schools have far more rule breaking AND slack, but it eventually leans to such egregious offenses that severe punishment results. Everyday common occurrences at black schools would be practically unheard of and result in immediate suspensions at white schools but wouldn't even be acknowledged.

banannaise 2y ago

You are correct, but we would have to dramatically decrease the number of rules, which would be great but appears to be a non-starter with just about everyone who has a say. You would have to dispense with a lot of rules that seem like obviously good things because of the unintended consequences.

_DeadFred_ 2y ago

Slack and ironically strict enforcement are both abused like crazy by managers to manipulate/hit on female employees in low wage jobs.

danaris 2y ago

Unfortunately, I think that uncompromising, inflexible rules are ultimately not a sustainable solution to that problem, either. Even when you're actively trying not to be discriminatory when writing such rules, you're nearly guaranteed to either make them so broad that they catch people who are genuinely doing nothing wrong or so narrow as to fail to catch a lot of obviously bad cases. No; the long-term solution, hard as it is, is to gradually push society toward a point where that sort of systemic discrimination is viewed near-universally as anathema to justice and to the health of the society as a whole, and make more rules of the type where a clear principle is outlined, a rule is stated with the principle as its foundation, and the people identifying and enforcing rule violations are assumed to be able to use reasonable human judgement.

swayvil 2y ago

The slack to do bad stuff is also the slack to do good stuff. They are one and the same. We could replace the term slack with freedom. We all like freedom. We write songs about how much we like it.

drekipus 2y ago
Freedom gives freedom for people to fail We must all be whipped into Utopia.

izacus 2y ago

Rules won't help you with discrimination. You can't write rules that won't be weaponized against you no matter how authoritarian you get. The trick to fixing discrimination is to have people not wish to discriminate and exert social pressure on others who might try. Trying to box in people who do evil with more bureaucracy and tighter and tighter rules is not sane. Rules can only ever be effective if they reflect the culture of a community.

AlgorithmicTime 2y ago

[dead]

arp242 2y ago

Few weeks ago I took the bus; my bank card didn't work and I didn't have quite enough cash for a ticket. Bus driver took what I had and said it was okay. Closest ATM to where I live is about 7km. This is the sort of basic compassion and humanity that needs to exist. Anything else would be cruel. This has always existed, and is increasingly made difficult by implementing systems that don't allow for these kind of exceptions. This is stripping regular normal people like that bus driver from their autonomy, and by extension, their humanity. That the bus driver could possibly maybe perhaps be racist and wouldn't have extended that kindness if I had been non-white is an entirely separate matter. Forbidding kindness because some people could possibly maybe perhaps be racist is far far worse, and will affect everyone negatively.

ranger_danger 2y ago
Conversely, Japan seems to get by fairly well without said slack whatsoever and a largely conformist society as a whole. Case in point, restaurant menus. Changing anything about your order is practically non-existent outside of maybe some Western chains. If it's not on the menu, you simply can't order it. All burgers come with tomatoes? Too bad. McDonald's Japan will not even sell you a large water. Even if you offer to pay full soda price, or even if you tell them to pour the soda out and then fill it with water (which is otherwise free), they simply refuse. The same situation with the bus driver would also never happen, they could easily get fired for allowing it. Train conductors even have to apologize for being early. There's also a lot more open racism and discrimination in various ways (example: drinking bar admittance or apartment rentals) and in various parts of their society that goes completely unpunished.
- bluefirebrand 2y ago
  > Conversely, Japan seems to get by fairly well without said slack whatsoever and a largely conformist society as a whole Japan has one of the highest suicide rates in the world Their society comes at a heavy cost
  - itake 2y ago

TeMPOraL 2y ago

Yep, you're demonstrating exactly the problem GP was talking about. These demands to eliminate any possibility of discrimination are shutting down institutions and gridlocking the society. There's always someone that'll feel they're disadvantaged somehow - not just because of race or gender (the big, flashy topics), but also because the district they live in, or some minor accident, or any other reason. You try to equalize all that, you get systems that are hell to live through and don't even give you much for the trouble. Also, you can hardly talk about kindness or other good traits and behaviors, in a world where you eliminate all space for showing it. Without slack, kindness is meaningless.